B0l0 Posted January 12, 2023 Author Share Posted January 12, 2023 2 hours ago, alejandro_ said: Interesting to see 2S25 Sprut, as in the early 90s it was still in development, so Polish officers would not have been able to test the vehicle. You are talking about airborne spg. The sprut in the chart is towed at gun variant 2A45 which was evaluated by soviet army since 1989, planned replacement for MT-12 rapira. It was essentially gun from t-64/72/80 on tripod. Russians insisted that Poles buy mt-12 since early 80s but it was always refused as deemed not big enough improvement to 85mm atg already in service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bojan Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 Wait, Poles did not have 100mm T-12/MT-12? Was 85mm D-44 or D-48? I know that polish airborne had ASU-85. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B0l0 Posted January 12, 2023 Author Share Posted January 12, 2023 It was D-44, later modernized to D-44M (new suspension). Couldn’t be more outdated. ASU-85 was only on loan for 10 years until 1976. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bojan Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 (edited) If ASU were only on loan how could Poland in the '90s sell 10 of those to Vietnam? Unless SIPRI is (once again) wrong, which is actually quite likely... As for D-44, with BK-2M HEAT it could penetrate any tank before composite armor frontally and even composite armored ones from the flank. IOW, most of the things T-12 could do, through with reduced hit chance due the lower velocity of HEAT compared with APFSDS. BTW, Merida FCS was based on Yugoslav SUV T-55, and CDDN-1 gunner's sight was is almost same design as DNNS-1 sight (which itself was based on Swedish design). Apparently exchange was FCS documentation in exchange for WZT-3 ARV documentation. Some components were different, Poles used own design of meteorological sensor instead of Swiss one Yugoslavia used, and LRF integrated in the gunner's sight was different also. So Poles had T-55s with best FCS in WP, and that FCS was better than one in T-72s... Was there a plan to upgrade T-72s with that FCS also and is that FCS related to what ended on the PT-91s? Edited January 12, 2023 by bojan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavel Novak Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 SIPRI is totally unusable for anything Warsaw Pact related during Cold War. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B0l0 Posted January 12, 2023 Author Share Posted January 12, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, bojan said: If ASU were only on loan how could Poland in the '90s sell 10 of those to Vietnam? Unless SIPRI is (once again) wrong, which is actually quite likely... As for D-44, with BK-2M HEAT it could penetrate any tank before composite armor frontally and even composite armored ones from the flank. IOW, most of the things T-12 could do, through with reduced hit chance due the lower velocity of HEAT compared with APFSDS. BTW, Merida FCS was based on Yugoslav SUV T-55, and CDDN-1 gunner's sight was is almost same design as DNNS-1 sight (which itself was based on Swedish design). Apparently exchange was FCS documentation in exchange for WZT-3 ARV documentation. Some components were different, Poles used own design of meteorological sensor instead of Swiss one Yugoslavia used, and LRF integrated in the gunner's sight was different also. So Poles had T-55s with best FCS in WP, and that FCS was better than one in T-72s... Was there a plan to upgrade T-72s with that FCS also and is that FCS related to what ended on the PT-91s? But new ammo was no longer developped for d-44 when T-12 was deployed. And late MT-12 models had gun launched atgm and radar FCS (there is a photo evidence of it being used by 8th Guards Army). Poland had a T-72 Wilk program with Merida FCS and Erawa ERA. It was later developped into PT-91. I also read that Wilk progressed slowly since, they were still hoping for T-72S license, until the very end of WarPact (some sources even mention T-80). @Pavel Novak Thank you for all the Czechoslovak army information. I could not hope for more detailed reference! Edited January 12, 2023 by B0l0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavel Novak Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 (edited) Rest of czechoslovak MRDs in hypothetical 1995: 3rd Motor-Rifle Division (about 50 % manpower in peacetime) - SSM battalion - Luna-M (FROG-7) - MRL battalion - RM-70 - Recon battalion - BVP-1, BPzV-1 Svatava (planned rearmament), OT-65 and specialized equipment (radars etc.) - 3x motor-rifle regiment - recon companies with BVP-1, BPzV-1 and OT-65; one regiment with BVP-1, two regiments with OT-64A; regimental tank battalions with T-54AM2B (not sure if already existing T-54AM2 were in MRR battalions or in tank regiment); all regimental artillery battalions with D-30 (originally some of them still had 122mm vz. 38/74); regimental AA batteries each with PLDvK-53/59; regimental AT battery in BVP-1 equipped regiment has 9P133 (AT-3) other two regimental AT batteries with OT-64 with manportable AT-3 - tank regiment - recon companies with BVP-1, BPzV-1 and OT-65; tank battalions with T-54AM2 (not sure if it have them originally or they were in MRR battalions); // without MR company; artillery battalion with RM-51; regimental AA battery with PLDvK-53/59 - artillery regiment - two battalions with ShKH-77 Dana (originally one Dana, possible rearmament), one battalion with D-30 and anti-tank battalion with three batteries with 100mm vz. 53 - SAM regiment - Kub-M3 (SA-6) (possible rearmament with Kub freed from 1st Army's SAM regiment which was supposed to rearm with Buk (SA-11)) 18th Motor-Rifle Division (mobilization division, equipment stored with 15th MRD in peacetime) // no SSM battalion - MRL battalion - RM-70 - Recon battalion - BVP-1, OT-65A, OT-65 and specialized equipment (radars etc.) - 3x motor-rifle regiment - recon companies with BVP-1, OT-65A and OT-65; one regiment with BVP-1, two regiments with OT-64A (originally there weren't enough OT-64A for mobilization units but they could receive them when freed from active divisions); regimental tank battalions with T-54AM; all regimental artillery battalions with 122mm vz. 38/74; regimental AA batteries each with PLDvK-53/59; regimental AT battery in BVP-1 equipped regiment has 9P133 (AT-3) other two regimental AT batteries with OT-64 with manportable AT-3 - tank regiment - recon company with BVP-1, OT-65A and OT-65; tank battalions with T-54AM; // without MR company; artillery battalion with RM-51; regimental AA battery with PLDvK-53/59 - artillery regiment - two battalions with 122mm vz. 38/74 and one battalion with 100mm vz. 53 (I am not exactly sure with this, could even utilize 152mm vz. 18/47) - AA regiment - 57mm S-60 (or possibly domestic 57mm CS) 26th Motor-Rifle Division (mobilization division, equipment stored with 3rd MRD in peacetime) // no SSM battalion - MRL battalion - RM-70 - Recon battalion - BVP-1, OT-65A, OT-65 and specialized equipment (radars etc.) - 3x motor-rifle regiment - recon companies with BVP-1, OT-65A and OT-65; one regiment with BVP-1, two regiments with OT-64A (originally there weren't enough OT-64A for mobilization units but they could receive them when freed from active divisions); regimental tank battalions with T-54AM (with adding freed ones from active units but originally there could be even T-54AR); all regimental artillery battalions with 122mm vz. 38/74; regimental AA batteries each with PLDvK-53/59; regimental AT battery in BVP-1 equipped regiment has 9P133 (AT-3) other two regimental AT batteries with OT-64 with manportable AT-3 - tank regiment - recon company with BVP-1, OT-65A and OT-65; tank battalions with T-54AM (originally there could be some T-54AR); // without MR company; artillery battalion with RM-51; regimental AA battery with PLDvK-53/59 - artillery regiment - two battalions with 122mm vz. 38/74 and one battalion with 100mm vz. 53 (I am not exactly sure with this, could even utilize 152mm vz. 18/47) - AA regiment - 57mm S-60 (or possibly domestic 57mm CS) 32nd Motor-Rifle Division (mobilization division, equipment stored with 14th TD in peacetime) // no SSM battalion - MRL battalion - RM-70 - Recon battalion - BVP-1, OT-65A, OT-65 and specialized equipment (radars etc.) - 3x motor-rifle regiment - recon companies with BVP-1, OT-65A and OT-65; one regiment with BVP-1, two regiments with OT-62 (probably not completely sure); regimental tank battalions with T-54AM (with adding freed ones from active units but originally there could be even T-54AR); all regimental artillery battalions with 122mm vz. 38/74; regimental AA batteries each with PLDvK-53/59; regimental AT battery in BVP-1 equipped regiment has 9P133 (AT-3) other two regimental AT batteries with OT-64 with manportable AT-3 - tank regiment - recon company with BVP-1, OT-65A and OT-65; tank battalions with T-54AM (originally there could be some T-54AR); // without MR company; artillery battalion with RM-51; regimental AA battery with PLDvK-53/59 - artillery regiment - two battalions with 122mm vz. 38/74 and one battalion with 100mm vz. 53 (I am not exactly sure with this, could even utilize 152mm vz. 18/47) - AA regiment - 57mm S-60 (or possibly domestic 57mm CS) That is all regarding 15 standard TD and MRD. Apart of these during mobilisation another three divisions and several independent regiments (about five) were planned to be created. I have never got info about their TOE. Their number differed in different plans and periods and are not listed in last 1989 war plan. They carried note "use on cs territory only". Regarding equipment 60th reserve MRD (the word reserve is part of name) doesn't had any APC or IFV in second half of 1980s and its tanks were T-34-85. If such formations stay here in mid 1990s they could eventually get little bit better equipment. Edited January 12, 2023 by Pavel Novak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bojan Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 (edited) Anyway, theoretical Yugoslav organization by 2000, some things differ from the ones posted previously... Sources, nice thing with them is that you can always pick one you like the most, since they never really agree... Plan 2001: 3 x Army area with: 17 x Corps. Unfortunately there is nothing detailed, but development plan for armored units was known: 6 x Armored Brigades - 3 x Armored + 1 x Mech Bn each 20 x Mechanized Brigades - 2 x Armored + 2 x Mech Bn each Total of: - 58 x Armored Bns - 2 x Armored Co (13 tanks each) + 1 x Mech Co (13 IFVs), for total of 27 tanks and 13 IFVs per Bn - 46 x Mech Bns . Those would use 2+1 Arm/Mech Cos for Armored Bn and 2+1 Mech/Arm Cos for Mech Bn for a total of 27 tanks + 13 IFVs for Armored Bn and 27 IFVs and 13 tanks for a Mech Bn. ~43 x Motorized or Infantry Brigades with 46 x Armored Bns (but w/o Mech Co, so only 27 tanks) - some brigades would obviously have 2 x tank Bn, and it is possible some would have none. Each was supposed to have 3 or 4 Infantry or Motor Bns. 1 x Mountain Brigade - no armored vehicles 7 x Hill Brigades - no armored vehicles - possibly two would have been converted to either Inf Bdes. ~20 x Light "Partisan" Brigades - no armored vehicles All naval infantry Bdes were converted to Motorized Bdes. Some definitions. In 1990. Infantry Bn did not have organic Co level transport for Infantry Cos (everything else did), while Motorized Bde had (5 trucks per each Motorized Co for F-90 org). However, with introduction of 6x6 APC definition was supposed to change, and Infantry units would be upgraded to a standard of previous Motorized, while term "Motorized" would be used for 6x6 APC equipped ones. But in both cases they were intended to keep main purpose of dismounted fighting, with trucks/APCs serving only as a "taxi". M-90/M-91 Vihor tank production - starting in 1995 (when M-84 production would end due the 1000 vehicles license agreement), 1st series of 30 tanks in 1995 and 100 per year in subsequent years. so ~530 until January 2001, unless it also got some export order, in which case part of production would go to export, as it happened with M-84A for Kuwait. So going by this and previous data there should be ~530 x M-90/91, ~750 M-84/84A, ~90 x T-72M and ~500 modernized T-55s in January 2001 for total of 1870 tanks. But 58 x Arm + 46 x Mech Bn in Arm/Mech Bdes would be 2164 tanks, and additional 1242 in 46 x Armored Bns of Motor/Inf Bdes, for a total of 3406 tanks! Of which only 1370 would be T-72+M-84/84A+M-90/91. That is actually sagnificant increase of ~400 tanks compared to estimate of d 3.078 tanks in service in 1995, some of which would have been retired. I don't know a reason for such huge disrepancy, possibly T-55s would have been kept much longer than planned ~2000. retirement date for unmodernized ones. Or maybe more than 500 would have been modernized... Modernized T-55s were planned to see service until 2010., as by that poing Vihor production would have been enough to replace all (Vihor was seen as T-55 ~1:1 replacement, same as M-84 was for T-34s/M-47s). Final date for M-60P APC retirement was 2005. I swear, every time I do some research it actually opens even more questions while providing very few solid answers... Edited January 25, 2023 by bojan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavel Novak Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 8 minutes ago, bojan said: Anyway, theoretical Yugoslav organization by 2000, some things differ from the ones posted previously... Sources, nice thing with them is that you can always pick one you like the most, since they never really agree... ... I swear, every time I do some research it actually opens even more questions while providing very few solid answers... The experience with future historical documents completely changed my view about historical documentation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Galbraith Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 Im not sure this is very useful, but something like a decade and a half ago I compiled a list of all the observations USMLM had made about equipment and orbat changes in the Soviet Army. If nothing else it shows the minimum level of equipment, such as 2s6, available in GSFG at the end. Some of the orbat and training exercise information are quite interesting also. I really must go back and put Frontal Aviation remarks in also. https://www.dropbox.com/s/kqmj869tc5mrysx/Changes1.pdf?dl=0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bojan Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, B0l0 said: But new ammo was no longer developped for d-44 when T-12 was deployed. BK-2M HEAT is from 1962-3. or so. It penetrated about 300mm, more than enough for anything but Leo2/M1 frontal projection and maybe parts of the turret sides. Quote And late MT-12 models had gun launched atgm and radar FCS (there is a photo evidence of it being used by 8th Guards Army). While FCS is nice thing, I fail to see a point of ATGM fired by ATG - after all, comparable ranged ATGMs could be fired from a much smaller infantry launchers, that are way easier to hide, entrench and move than ~3t ATG.. Quote Poland had a T-72 Wilk program with Merida FCS and Erawa ERA. So basically M-84A + ERA in case of T-72M1 being base. Did Poland try to get thermal sights in the tanks? Locally there were talks with Texas instruments about purchase of TI sights and later license production (more likely assembly from TI produced matrixes) going on in early 1991. IBV M-90 was planned to have thermal sight and it was most likely for Vihor full serial production. Oh, back you Yugoslavia, there was a very serious problem of replacing... M-36 Jackson SPGs. There was nothing that could fulfil a role envisioned, and I would dare to say that was a problem of own making, since "weird" combination of characteristics was in requirements. As a consequence no modernization and development plan had even considered it's retirement or replacement. Edited January 12, 2023 by bojan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Galbraith Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 Was there ever an explanation of how some T55's ended up with Hellcat turrets? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bojan Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 (edited) Turretless driver's training vehicles that were armed with whatever was available during the war. There was also 2S1 with BVP M-80 turret and with ATGM launcher from POLO M-83, made from damaged 2S1s. Also T-55 hull with 37mm and 40mm AA guns, WW2 vintage M-8 Greyhound with M-80 turret and diesel engine, BOV M-86 with TAB-71 turrets etc. Edited January 12, 2023 by bojan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James1978 Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 1 hour ago, bojan said: Oh, back you Yugoslavia, there was a very serious problem of replacing... M-36 Jackson SPGs. There was nothing that could fulfil a role envisioned, and I would dare to say that was a problem of own making, since "weird" combination of characteristics was in requirements. As a consequence no modernization and development plan had even considered it's retirement or replacement. What was the role envisioned for the M36s? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bojan Posted January 12, 2023 Share Posted January 12, 2023 (edited) Role was an infantry support, they were part of Mixed Anti-Armor Artillery Groups (Bns) in the motorized and infantry brigades (Mech brigades also had those, but M-36s were not important there and on the way out). Each Group/Bn had two batteries of 6 x M-36 and single battery of either 6 x Sagger or 6 x SP-ATGM. Problem with replacement was that it was sub-30t (29t combat loaded IIRC, quite important in heavy terrain with poor road network and weak bridges) vehicle with almost tank like firepower (M74 HEAT could penetrate 300mm of armor and fused reliably up the 75deg angle) and hence fight any pre-composite armor tank from any angle, had good depression/elevation angles which mattered a lot in the heavy terrain of Yugoslavia which were main ground for employment of infantry and motorized brigades.. T-55 was considered inadequate for that role due the elevation/depression, despite being considered adequate for areas where armored/mech units were supposed to be used (more gentle terrain). Plus whole thing that M-36 belonged to artillery, while tanks belonged to armored units... How important role of those was is indicated by a fact that most M-36 batteries got RLD M84 laser rangefinders (issued to Plt Cmd vehicles) starting in ~1985. in order to increase their efficiency (previously, since 1981. they had single ALD M80 laser rangefinder at Bty HQ). Requirements from early '80s were sub 35t weight, "older tank like firepower", at least 45km/h speed, -9/+20deg depression elevation (with caveat that -8 is acceptable if all other requirements are fulfilled especially well), 40+ rounds of ammo, HE no less efficient than 90mm M71, HEAT ammo penetration no less than 400mm. Protection requirements were pretty light, 7.9x57mm AP from the side @ 100m and 12.7mm AP @ 100m from the front. During years, a lot of vehicles were considered for M-36 replacement, problem was always that either firepower was too light (French 90mm turret from AML-90 on M-80 IFV hull), or depression was bad, or weight too high, or did not have enough ammo, or combination of factors (AMX-13-90). Closest that has ever came to replacement was Swedish IKV 91, but it was pretty expensive vehicle, costing as much as T-72M tank (it had pretty advanced FCS for it's time), so nothing came out of it. As I have noted, part of problem was of own making, too tight specifications that excluded a lot of vehicles that would have been "good enough". Reminds me in fact of whole US MPF program. I mean, role is practically the same. Edited January 13, 2023 by bojan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavel Novak Posted January 13, 2023 Share Posted January 13, 2023 Addendum to czechoslovak divisions in hypothetical 1995: I have stated that mobilization 18th MRD equipment was stored with 15th MRD but it is possible that 4th TD was also responsible and maybe they shared responsibility. Further to this 18th MRD seems to started process of modernizing its tanks to T-54/55/AM1/AM2 standard. No idea how far it actually was but it could be possible that by 1995 all its T-54/55 would be modernized especially if 15th MRD itself doesn't modernize its tanks in expectation of full rearmament to T-72. Divisional artillery regiments in mobilized divisions had probably this structure: one battalion with two batteries with 152mm vz. 18/47 and two battalions with three batteries with 122mm vz. 38/74. MRDs had in addition AT battalion with three batteries with 100mm vz. 53. I doubt that this equipment would change by 1995 as there weren't and probably still wouldn't be by 1995 enough 122mm D-30 for all active battalions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bojan Posted January 13, 2023 Share Posted January 13, 2023 (edited) So, theoretical Yugoslav Armored Brigade, ~2000, based on 1990/91 org and planned development Bde HQ and Command Recce Co - 4 x Wheeled APC, 6 x IBV M-90 - IBV M-90 was supposed to replace BRDM-2 and PT-76. 3rd Platoon would have stayed "light recce" role, with 3 scout sections, but upgrade to APCs (either BOV M-86 or new 6x6) from trucks was planned. Signal Co Military Police Platoon - 3 x BOV M-86 NBC Defense Platoon Logistic Bn Engineer Bn - 24 x APC (not clear if M-60P would have been replaced and by what, one proposal was turretless version of M-80A IFV, but nothing was decided on by 1991.)- Two Pioneer Cos had APCs, 1st had 10, second had 14 (4 were used as cargo carriers). Armored Bn x 3 - 27 tank, 13 x IFV, 6 x 120mm mortar (it was planned to equip Armored Bns with 120mm mortars just like Mechanized were), 3 x MANPADS Mechanized Bn - 13 tank, 27 x IFV, 6 x 120mm mortar, 3 x MANPADS Mixed Artillery Bn - 18 x 122mm 2S1, 6 x M-94 Plamen-S or M-77 Oganj, 3 x MANPADS Mixed Anti-Armor Artillery Bn - 12 x 100mm T-12 ATG, 12 x M-83 SP-ATGM, 3 x MANPADS Mixed Light Artillery-Missile Anti-Aircraft Bn - 12 x SPAA, 8 x SP-SAM (Strela-10M), 4 x AD command APCs, 3 x MANPADS Total - 94 tanks (Vihor/M-84/T-72), 66 x IFVs (M-80A1/M-80A), 6 x recce vehicle (IBV M-90) , 7 x BOV M-86 (or 3 x BOV M-86 + 4 x 6x6 APC), 5 x ARV, 4 x tank bridgelayer, 4 x Command APCs (M-80A VK/BTR-50PU), 4 x AD command APC (BTR-60PU), 24 x 120mm M74 mortar, 18 x 122mm 2S1 SP-artillery, 12 x ATGM (4 in each 2S1 battery), 6 x 128/32mm M-94 Plamen-S SPMRL, 12 x SPAA (M-80A2/ZSU-57-2 - those were scheduled for retirement, but would have probably served unitl 2000), 8 x SP-SAM (Strela-10M2J), 12 x 100mm T-12 ATG (with FCS), 12 x POLO M-80A LT, Theoretical Mechanized Brigade ~2000: Bde HQ and Command - all formations w/o notes are same as in Arm Bn. Recce Co Signal Co Military Police Co - 6 x BOV M-86 (3rd Platoon had "regular" police jobs and did not have armored vehicles) NBC Defense Platoon Logistic Bn Engineer Bn Armored Bn x 2 Mechanized Bn x 2 Mixed Artillery Bn Mixed Anti-Armor Artillery Bn Mixed Light Artillery-Missile Anti-Aircraft Bn Total - 80 x tank (Vihor/M-84/T-72), 80 x IFVs (M-80A1/M-80A), 6 x recce vehicle (IBV M-90) , 10 x BOV M-86 (or 3 x BOV M-86 + 4 x 6x6 APC), 5 x ARV, 4 x tank bridgelayer, 4 x Command APCs (M-80A VK/BTR-50PU), 4 x AD command APC (BTR-60PU), 24 x 120mm M74 mortar, 12 x 122mm 2S1 SP-artillery, 12 x ATGM (4 in each 2S1 battery), 6 x 128/32mm M-63 Plamen MRL, 12 x SPAA (M-80A2/ZSU-57-2), 8 x SP-SAM (Strela-10M2J), 12 x 100mm T-12 ATG (with FCS), 12 x POLO M-80A LT Support elements were taken more-less as they were in the 1991. There were plans to reinforce Mixed Artillery Bn to 18 x 2S1 + 6 x M-77 Oganj, Mixed AD Artillery Bn to 12 x SPAA + 12 x SP-SAM. Theoretical Motorized Brigade ~2000 w/6x6 APC: Bde HQ and Command Recce Co - 3 x scout vehicle, 8 x APC. 1st Plt was 3 x BRDM-2, 2nd and 3rd was "light recce" role. With same org as in 1991. they would need 8 x APC to carry all scouts (previously trucks were used). Signal Co Military Police Co - 6 x BOV M-86 (3rd Platoon had "regular" police jobs and did not have armored vehicles) NBC Defense Platoon Logistic Bn Engineer Bn - 24 x 6x6 APC Armored Bn x 1 or 2 - 27 x Tank, no IFVs or Mortars in this one, 3 x MANPADS Motorized Bn x 3 - Exact number of APCs required is not clear. Motorized Co would require 1 Command, 12 in 3 x Mot Plts (4 each), AT Plt another 3. If F-92 formation was implemented, each Co would also have 82mm mortar Platoon. If mortars stayed in trucks (very likely) it is 16 APCs per Co, with AT Plt also using trucks 13 per Co. I think this was most likely, as main mode of fighting was dismounted, and APCs were only there to give units mobility with some light protection for direct combat elements. Other than 3 x Mot Co each Bn had AT Co (6 x Sagger, 4 x Fagot, 6 x RCL, but there were plans to reinforce that to 6+6). Not clear if those would have been mounted in APCs, and I doubt it. If they were they would need ~7-8 APCs. Bn also had standard 120mm Mortar Co. So most likely total for Bn would be - 40 x APC (3 Cos + Bn Cmd one), 6 x Sagger, 4/6 x Fagot, 6 x Bumbar (in AT Plt/Mot Co*), 6 x 82mm RCL, 12 x 82mm mortar, 6 x 120mm mortar, 3 x MANPADS, 4 x 20/1mm AAG *Those were supposed to be 1:1 replacement for RCLs in the AT Plt/Inf or Mot Co. If not replaced add another 6 RCLs to a Bn total. Mixed Artillery Bn - 18 x 122mm D-30, 6 x 128/32mm M63 Plamen, 3 x MANPADS Mixed Anti-Armor Artillery Bn - 12 x M-36, 12 x M-83 - older 9P122 were already out of service at "war reserves" status (no personal trained for those nor assigned to units), 9P133 were all in the Mixed Anti-Armor Artillery Brigades., 3 x MANPADS Mixed Light Artillery-Missile Anti-Aircraft Bn - 12 x SPAA (BOV-3), 8 x SP-SAM (Strela-10M/M2J or Strela-1M, later one potentially modernized), 3 x MANPADS Theoretical Infantry Brigade ~2000 Bde HQ and Command Recce Co - 3 x scout vehicle, 1st Plt was 3 x BRDM-2, 2nd and 2rd are truck mounted Signal Co Military Police Co - truck mounted NBC Defense Platoon Logistic Bn Engineer Bn - truck mounted Armored Bn x 1 - 27 x Tank, no IFVs or Mortars in this one, 3 x MANPADS. Some Inf Bdes would not have Arm Bn. Infantry Bn x 3 - pretty similar in the weapons as Mot Bn. Probably slower to receive Bumbar ATGMs - 6 x Sagger, 4/6 x Fagot, 12 x 82mm RCL (or 6 x Bumbar + 6 x RCL), 12 x 82mm mortar, 6 x 120mm mortar, 3 x MANPADS, 4 x 20/1mm AAG Mixed Artillery Bn - 18 x 122mm D-30, 6 x 128/32mm M63 Plamen, 3 x MANPADS Mixed Anti-Armor Artillery Bn - 12 x M-36, 12 x ATGM, 3 x MANPADS Mixed Light Artillery-Missile Anti-Aircraft Bn - 12 x 20/3 AAG, 12 x MANPADS Edited March 1, 2023 by bojan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavel Novak Posted January 13, 2023 Share Posted January 13, 2023 Are there in this Yugoslav structure any radars (GSR or for air surveilliance)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bojan Posted January 13, 2023 Share Posted January 13, 2023 (edited) Yes. IBV M-90 was supposed to get one (along with thermals), and 3rd (light-scout) platoon of each Recce Co had Radar Section with IIRC 3 man-portable radars since at least late '70s. Mixed Arty Bns was also supposed to have one dedicated artillery radar, but problem was that SNAR-10 that was envisioned for that role was basically useless (it had problems with background clutter, and those ended in coastal artillery where they were useful), so something new was supposed to be introduced. There were smaller artillery (IIRC targeted toward mortar detection) radars, RDA (alternatively ARD) M89, but I know very little of it's development and deployment. IRL it was rare, as apparently production was only supposed to fully start in 1991. For AD radars - Each battery of M-80A2 "Foka" SPAA was supposed to get FC radar, most probably Swedish Giraffe. Vehicles could be connected to receive radar data either by cable or radio link, in both cases providing real time display of target bearing and heading (Giraffe is 2D radar, so no altitude data). Artillery Brigades and Regiments (Regiments were supposed to convert to Brigades in general abandonment of regiment/division system and transfer to Bde/Corps org) were where dedicated artillery radars were supposed to be used in larger numbers, but again, due the SNAR-10 deficiencies this was not really done until 1991. I know there was local development in cooperation with Sweden, but again I have no idea how far it has progressed and what a perspective for introduction and production were. Edited January 13, 2023 by bojan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavel Novak Posted January 13, 2023 Share Posted January 13, 2023 For me it is interesting how Yugoslavia was in military equipment surpassing non-soviet warsaw pact countries and its freedom in organizational matters (Czechoslovak army resigned to develop own organizational ideas already at the end of 1950s). Also I would insolently state here that Czechoslovak starting position after ww2 was significantly better than Yugoslav one but by 1980s it was already loosing and not just because of that bulky divisional structure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavel Novak Posted January 13, 2023 Share Posted January 13, 2023 (edited) Czechoslovak army structure (major units) in hypothetical year 1995, changes against 1988/89 underlined: 1st Army assets: - 321st SSM Brigade - two battalions with Elbrus (SCUD B ) - 322nd Gun Artillery Brigade - three battalions with ShKH-77 Dana and two battalions with 130mm M-46 - MRL Regiment (mobilization unit) - three battalions with RM-70 - 216th Anti-Tank Regiment - three battalions each with two batteries with 100mm vz. 53 and one battery with 9P148 (AT-5) - SAM Brigade - Buk-M1 (SA-11) (planned rearmament, originaly Kub (SA-6) regiment) - 11th Helicopter Regiment - two squadrons with Mi-24V, one squadron with Mi-17 - 1st Command and Reconnaissance Squadron - Mi-2 and Mi-17 - 101st UAV Squadron - Tu-143 (VR-3) 4th Army assets: - 331st SSM Brigade - two battalions with Elbrus (SCUD B ) - 332nd Gun Artillery Brigade - three battalions with ShKH-77 Dana and two battalions with 130mm M-46 - MRL Regiment (mobilization unit) - three battalions with RM-70 - 217th Anti-Tank Regiment - three battalions each with two batteries with 100mm vz. 53 and one battery with 9P148 (AT-5) - 251st SAM Regiment - Kub-M3 (SA-6) - 51st Helicopter Regiment - two squadrons with Mi-24D, one squadron with Mi-17 - 52nd Command and Reconnaissance Squadron - Mi-2 and Mi-8 - 104th UAV Squadron - Tu-143 (VR-3) So apart of that Buk (SA-11) brigade there is no change and I don't see what could have been changed here in that six years. On the other hand army assets were significantly boosted in 1980s both in artillery and aviation units so in 1990s there would not be pressure to invest in that again. Edited January 13, 2023 by Pavel Novak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B0l0 Posted January 14, 2023 Author Share Posted January 14, 2023 (edited) Next up- DDR 1998 OOB No force reduction, military spending rising at the same pace as during 1980-88 9th and 7th Panzer Divisions: 3 Panzer regiments- each 3 panzer battalions (T-72S), 1 motor rifle battalion, filled up with mobilized pesonnel (BMP-1P) 1 Motor rifle regiment- 1 panzer battalion (T-72S), 3 motor rifle battalions (BMP-2), artillery battalion (2S1), ATGM battery (BRDM AT-5) 1 Artillery regiment- 1 RM-70 battalion, 3 2S1 battalions, 1 2S3 battalion, 1 2S19 battalion 1 Recce battalion- BRDM-2, BMP-1, BRM-1 AA missile regiment- SA-15 Regimental AA Units- SA-13, 2S6 Total: 320 T-72S, 120 BMP-2, 120 BMP-1P, 20 SA-15, 16 SA-13, 16 2S6, 18 2S19, 72 2S1, 18 2S3, 18 RM-70 Note: Panzer divisions are 1st in line for new equipment 8th and 4th Motor Rifle Divisions 2 Motor rifle regiments- each 1 Panzer battalion (T-72M), 3 MR battalions (1st regiment with BMP-2, 2nd regiment with BMP-1P), artillery bn (2S1), ATGM batt (BRDM AT-5) 1 Motor rifle regiment- 1 Panzer bn (T-72M), 3 MR battalions (BTR-80), artillery bn (2S1), ATGM batt (BRDM-AT5) 1 Panzer Regiment- 3 Panzer bn (T-72M1), 1 MR company (BMP-1P) 1 Artillery regiment- RM-70 bn, 2 2S3 bns, 1 2S1 bn 1 Recce battalion- BRDM-2, BMP-1 AA missile regiment- SA-8 AT battalion- Sprut-A, BRDM AT-5 Regimental AA units- SA-13, ZSU-23-4 Total: 94 T-72M1, 120 T-72M, 120 BMP-2, 130 BMP-1P, 150 BTR-80, 20 SA-8, 16 SA-13, 16 ZSU-23-4, 24 2S3, 72 2S1, 18 RM-70, 12 Sprut-A Note: T-72 and BMP trickle down from reequipped Panzer Divisions 11th and 1st Motor Rifle Divisions 1 Motor rifle regiment- 1 Panzer battalion (T-55AM), 3 MR battalions (BMP-1P), artillery bn (2S1), ATGM batt (BRDM AT-3) 2 Motor rifle regiments- each 1 Panzer bn (T-55AM), 3 MR battalions (BTR-80), artillery bn (2S1 in 11th, D-30 in 1st), ATGM batt (BRDM-AT3) 1 Panzer Regiment- 3 Panzer bn (T-55AM), 1 MR company (BMP-1P) 1 Artillery regiment- RM-70 bn, 1 2S3 bn, 2 2S1 bn in 11th, 1 2S1 and 1 D-30 bn in 1st 1 Recce battalion- BRDM-2, BMP-1 AA missile regiment- SA-8 AT battalion- Sprut-A, BRDM AT-5 Regimental AA units- SA-9, ZSU-23-4 Total: 214 T-55AM, 120 BMP-2, 130 BMP-1P, 150 BTR-80, 20 SA-8, 16 SA-13, 16 ZSU-23-4, 24 2S3, 72 2S1, 18 RM-70, 12 Sprut-A Note: They get leftover T-55AM 2 Artillerie brigades: Each- 36 2A65, 54 D-20 40th Artillerie brigade (Berlin): 36 D-30, 18 M-46, 18 RM-70 2 MRL regiments: each- 18 BM-27, 12 RM-70 2 AT regiments: each- 48 Sprut-A, 9 BRDM AT-5 SSM units: Scud replaced with SS-23 Attack helicopters: 40 mi-24P Notes: I think this inventory of tanks is quite plausible if they start buying T-72S by 1993 at the latest. Not sure about 2S19 though, but soviets didn't have problems with selling other artillery systems immeditely after introdution. Reserve divisions to follow Edited January 14, 2023 by B0l0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted January 14, 2023 Share Posted January 14, 2023 (edited) Is there a reason for the Soviet style tank divisions to be so tank heavy? Iirc, Western tank divisions tend to be about a 1:1 ratio of tank formations to armored infantry formation? Edited January 14, 2023 by Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavel Novak Posted January 14, 2023 Share Posted January 14, 2023 Regarding DDR, I thing that proposed rearmament with T-72S is way too optimistic. During 10 years of 1980s they were able to completely rearm only one panzer division with T-72. So in next five years I can see that they finish rearming of the second one with T-72M1 and maybe got one regiment worth of T-72S by 1995 (and thus only one regiment worth of older T-72 freed for MRDs). Similar with BMP-2, they had I think just one battalion in 1989, so by 1995 at best two regiments for panzer divisions but nothing for MRDs. There are too much artillery battalions in panzer division's artillery regiments. Finally no more SS-23. What was obtained in 1980s is final number due to INF treaty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavel Novak Posted January 14, 2023 Share Posted January 14, 2023 2 minutes ago, Rick said: Is there a reason for the Soviet style tank divisions to be so tank heavy? Iirc, Western tank divisions tend to be about a 1:1 ratio of tank formations to armored infantry formation? Atomic warfare when it make some sense. But in conventional war it is bad organisation with lot of flaws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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