90s NATO and WP OOB- What if

[old_goat]

4 minutes ago, alejandro_ said:

Interesting to see Su-22M3 and Su-25 but no MiG-29.

According to a Hungarian member of this site there was interest in buying T-80UD (described as a better tank than T-72 with boxer engine), but sale was denied.

Well, at that time, MiG-23MF was considered satisfactory. (of course IRL it was hopelessly obsolete)

As for the T-80UD, I've never heard about this story. There were two possible candidates for acquiring better tanks. First is the T-72S (T-72B export variant), which was the planned main tank of WP forces. The second was the T-64 (that fits the "better than T-72 with boxer engine"). But this was during the soviet withdrawal from Hungary. Soviets actually offered some T-64s (unknown variant & number) to leave here for us. Of course our idiotic politicians declined the offer, they didnt care for the army at all. Well, thats not entirely correct. They cared, because they saw an opportunity to steal and enrich themselves, the result was the almost total dissolution of our armed forces. But thats another story. 

[Perun]

If CS and Poland got license for T-80 how much time would be needed for start of production from license to final product

[alejandro_]

On 4/5/2024 at 4:08 PM, old_goat said:

Well, at that time, MiG-23MF was considered satisfactory. (of course IRL it was hopelessly obsolete)

As for the T-80UD, I've never heard about this story. There were two possible candidates for acquiring better tanks. First is the T-72S (T-72B export variant), which was the planned main tank of WP forces. The second was the T-64 (that fits the "better than T-72 with boxer engine"). But this was during the soviet withdrawal from Hungary. Soviets actually offered some T-64s (unknown variant & number) to leave here for us.

MiG-23MF and MiG-23ML/MLF were definitely more popular. The latter were quite competitive in the late 80s.

Regarding T-80UD, according to the person the tank had been seen in the Soviet Union. Og course, it could have been a T-64 but then they would be familiar with it. I did not know Soviets offered T-64s to Hungary. It would have been a nice improvement but it was an era of massive downsizing of Armies. 

According to Russian sources T-64s were offered to Afghanistan, but it was turned down as T-55/62s were more simple to use and already available.
 

1 hour ago, Perun said:

If CS and Poland got license for T-80 how much time would be needed for start of production from license to final product

It is quite a long process that would take a few years. First you start assembling kits and then you start to manufacture parts, increase the % of local components. 
 

[Captain Hurricane]

On 4/2/2024 at 4:36 AM, Perun said:

Thanks mate, nice find. Do you know for which year is this

Think this is from about 1986?....but I'm relying entirely on online translation.

Edited April 7 by Captain Hurricane

[Darth Stalin]

On 4/5/2024 at 3:49 PM, old_goat said:

Maybe this would be interesting for someone here. Planned hungarian acquistions, late 1980s. Unfortunately, due to severe economic difficulties, very little was achieved:

 - T-55 modernization to T-55AM level (equivalent to czech T-55AM2) for 400 tanks. Only 152 were modernized eventually. 

- Replacement of PSzH-IV APCs with BTR-80. Only 32 arrived. (although later we bought far more ... to replace BMP lol)

- 2S3M Akatsia, 54 units. Only 18 arrived.

- 101. fighter-bomber regiment, one squadron with Su-22M3, and two with Su-25 (20-25 total). Additionally, on squadron with Tu-143 recon UAVs. 4 launchers and 12 aircraft total. From this, only the Su-22s were realized.

- 20 more Mi-24V, none arrived.

- 4 complex of 9K714 Oka, none arrived

- 4 complex of 9K79 Tochka, none arrived

- One battalion with RM-70 MLRS, none arrived

- two batteries of S-300PMU, crew training and site construction began, but the complexes never arrived.

- Strela-10M3, 24 vehicles. Only 4 arrived eventually.

- 9K310 Igla-E, 173 launchers. Only 66 arrived. 

Interesting info, thanks!

Some of it is also provided in the Hungarian book I've provided the link to.

It seems that they planned to re-equip the 5th Army's arty bde completely with SP arty (2S3) and modern MRLs (RM-70).

However, where did they plan to put those Mi-24Vs? They already had a full army-level regiment of Hinds, so what about those 20 more? Any idea, if there would be another squadron in that regiment (87th IIRC) or some sort of independent regiment/squadron?

[alejandro_]

Quote

- 4 complex of 9K714 Oka, none arrived
- 4 complex of 9K79 Tochka, none arrived

Interesting to see emphasis in these systems (Hungary also had Scud systems as well).

[old_goat]

18 hours ago, Darth Stalin said:

However, where did they plan to put those Mi-24Vs? They already had a full army-level regiment of Hinds, so what about those 20 more? Any idea, if there would be another squadron in that regiment (87th IIRC) or some sort of independent regiment/squadron?

The plan was to reinforce the 87th regiment with them.

[Darth Stalin]

26 minutes ago, old_goat said:

The plan was to reinforce the 87th regiment with them.

Thanks for info!

In Wiki there's info that 87th regt was reorganised into a "brigade", maybe that reinforcement was comnected to that change?

[old_goat]

34 minutes ago, Darth Stalin said:

In Wiki there's info that 87th regt was reorganised into a "brigade", maybe that reinforcement was comnected to that change?

They received more transport helicopters, I think that was the main reason. But in 1990, they were again reduced to a regiment. 

[urbanoid]

On 4/5/2024 at 3:49 PM, old_goat said:

Maybe this would be interesting for someone here. Planned hungarian acquistions, late 1980s. Unfortunately, due to severe economic difficulties, very little was achieved:

 - T-55 modernization to T-55AM level (equivalent to czech T-55AM2) for 400 tanks. Only 152 were modernized eventually. 

- Replacement of PSzH-IV APCs with BTR-80. Only 32 arrived. (although later we bought far more ... to replace BMP lol)

- 2S3M Akatsia, 54 units. Only 18 arrived.

- 101. fighter-bomber regiment, one squadron with Su-22M3, and two with Su-25 (20-25 total). Additionally, on squadron with Tu-143 recon UAVs. 4 launchers and 12 aircraft total. From this, only the Su-22s were realized.

- 20 more Mi-24V, none arrived.

- 4 complex of 9K714 Oka, none arrived

- 4 complex of 9K79 Tochka, none arrived

- One battalion with RM-70 MLRS, none arrived

- two batteries of S-300PMU, crew training and site construction began, but the complexes never arrived.

- Strela-10M3, 24 vehicles. Only 4 arrived eventually.

- 9K310 Igla-E, 173 launchers. Only 66 arrived. 

Su-22M3 in the late 1980s? By that time M4s have been available for quite a few years already, Poland was using them since 1984 or so.
 

[urbanoid]

On 4/5/2024 at 5:08 PM, old_goat said:

Well, at that time, MiG-23MF was considered satisfactory. (of course IRL it was hopelessly obsolete)

As for the T-80UD, I've never heard about this story. There were two possible candidates for acquiring better tanks. First is the T-72S (T-72B export variant), which was the planned main tank of WP forces. The second was the T-64 (that fits the "better than T-72 with boxer engine"). But this was during the soviet withdrawal from Hungary. Soviets actually offered some T-64s (unknown variant & number) to leave here for us. Of course our idiotic politicians declined the offer, they didnt care for the army at all. Well, thats not entirely correct. They cared, because they saw an opportunity to steal and enrich themselves, the result was the almost total dissolution of our armed forces. But thats another story. 

There are similar rumors about possible acquisition of T-80 license by Poland, but I think they're more of an urban legend. What was on the table was the same - the T-72S, the problem was that the Soviets wanted to treat it as a whole new license, we saw it as merely an upgrade to the existing T-72M/M1 one, with obvious differences about what it would cost.

[old_goat]

6 minutes ago, urbanoid said:

Su-22M3 in the late 1980s? By that time M4s have been available for quite a few years already, Poland was using them since 1984 or so.

Yep, M3. And things got even more bizarre. Su-22s were supposed to be powered by AL-21 engines. What we got, on paper, were R-29s, but in fact, these were vastly different than the R-29s in our MiG-23s... Didnt matter in the end, these things worked reliably. 

[Darth Stalin]

19 hours ago, old_goat said:

Yep, M3. And things got even more bizarre. Su-22s were supposed to be powered by AL-21 engines. What we got, on paper, were R-29s, but in fact, these were vastly different than the R-29s in our MiG-23s... Didnt matter in the end, these things worked reliably. 

Well, this is a bit of misunderstanding here - the Su-22M3 were already in use by Hungarian AF since 1983:

http://www.easternorbat.com/html/new_hungarian_su-22_eng.html

They were used by 101st independent recon sqn, and it seems that the sqn was to be upgraded into a regiment with addition of 2 sqns of Su-25s.

[Perun]

Is there timeline for those acqusitions

[armygroup1004]

French Armed Forces in Cold War

 

- Army

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outline_of_the_French_Army_at_the_end_of_the_Cold_War

 

- Navy

https://www.netmarine.net/

 

- Air Force

https://www.traditions-air.fr/texte/commandants_grands_commandements.htm

 

- Gendarmerie

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organisation_de_la_gendarmerie_départementale

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organisation_de_la_gendarmerie_mobile

 

We'll need more detailed information on navy organization.

[Darth Stalin]

On 1/14/2023 at 9:03 PM, Pavel Novak said:

Czechoslovak front structure (major units) in hypothetical year 1995, changes against 1988/89 underlined:

[...]

- 71st Airborne Assault Battalion

- 22nd Special Purpose Airborne Brigade

Pavel, I still have some questions about those units.

1) 71st Battalion seems to be an analogue to the Soviet Army-level Air Assault Independent Battalions, at the time being formed in Soviet armies both in Groups of Forces (like 901st bn in Czechoslovakia) and in most of "border" Military Districts - however being capable of both heliborne and parachute operations for Army it is attached to. (and more as an analogue for the Hungarian 5st Bn, formed in 1987 within RUBIN-reorganisation, or the GDR 40th and 4st bns, formed in wartime from peacetime 40th regiment).

 

2) 22nd Bde is a mystery for me, as until 1968 it was a "regular" parachute brigade, similar to Polish 6th Pomeranian Div/Bde.

However, as in the 80s it had 3 x "special purpose" abn bns and only 1 x "support weapons company", and confronted with what I had read on valka.cz and other Czech forums, this unit would serve in a similar way to Polish 1st Independent Assault Battalion (from Dziwnów, later Lubliniec), i.e. "ranger"/LRRP-operations on behalf of the Front.

I also read somewhere that in wartime the 3rd bn of the 22nd Bde would split in two to mobilise 1st and 4th special recon bns ("Spetsnaz"-like units), similar to GDR 3rd and 5th Spezialaufklarungs Bataillons (deployed from peacetime companies) and Polish 2nd and 3rd Bns (deployed from peacetime 56th and 62nd special companies, while 48th would remain at company level).

Am I right about that?

Edited June 11 by Darth Stalin

[Pavel Novak]

6 hours ago, Darth Stalin said:

Pavel, I still have some questions about those units.

1) 71st Battalion seems to be an analogue to the Soviet Army-level Air Assault Independent Battalions, at the time being formed in Soviet armies both in Groups of Forces (like 901st bn in Czechoslovakia) and in most of "border" Military Districts - however being capable of both heliborne and parachute operations for Army it is attached to. (and more as an analogue for the Hungarian 5st Bn, formed in 1987 within RUBIN-reorganisation, or the GDR 40th and 4st bns, formed in wartime from peacetime 40th regiment).

 

2) 22nd Bde is a mystery for me, as until 1968 it was a "regular" parachute brigade, similar to Polish 6th Pomeranian Div/Bde.

However, as in the 80s it had 3 x "special purpose" abn bns and only 1 x "support weapons company", and confronted with what I had read on valka.cz and other Czech forums, this unit would serve in a similar way to Polish 1st Independent Assault Battalion (from Dziwnów, later Lubliniec), i.e. "ranger"/LRRP-operations on behalf of the Front.

I also read somewhere that in wartime the 3rd bn of the 22nd Bde would split in two to mobilise 1st and 4th special recon bns ("Spetsnaz"-like units), similar to GDR 3rd and 5th Spezialaufklarungs Baillons (deployed from peacetime companies) and Polish 2nd and 3rd Bns (deployed from peacetime 56th and 62nd special companies, while 48th would remain at company level).

Am I right about that?

Out of head I don't know but I think that war orbat of 22nd brigade had all three battalions. But 22nd was reduced to regiment at some point after 1968 and became brigade only in late 1980s again so may be during regiment time only two battalions were planned.

Edited June 11 by Pavel Novak

[Pavel Novak]

Here is some info: https://mocr.army.cz/assets/multimedia-a-knihovna/publikace/vystavy/barety_gs.pdf

 - When 22nd airborne brigade was reduced to 22nd regiment in 1969 it lost its anti-tank battalion but it kept three airborne battalions (but in changed structure). First two battalions were based on original three battalions in the brigade but the third one was based on disbanded 7th airborne regiment (and was already special purpose). Structure was fully set as special purpose in 1976. Again to brigade was changed in 1987.

 

https://www.vhu.cz/vysadkove-vojsko-v-roce-1969/

- After 1969 the airborne recon companies (1st and 4th) for armies were in peacetime structure of 22nd regiment outside of its three airborne battalions. So that means that 22nd regiment in wartime would still have three airborne battalions.

 

https://armada.vojenstvi.cz/vase-dotazy/100.htm

- Here is organization of the brigade in 1987, it kept three battalions so change from regiment to brigade did not raise numbers much. Each battalion has three companies (but in peacetime some reduced) so these would not be used for armies recon airborne companies.

Edited June 11 by Pavel Novak

[Pavel Novak]

Opened some of my old notes with 1985 war orbat:

Counterintelligence airborne recon company - under national command (not part of Czechoslovak front)

22nd Special task airborne regiment - under Czechoslovak front with three airborne battalions and one special weapons company (ATGM)

1st and 4th Special task airborne recon company - under each army

15x Long range recon company - one in each divisional recon battalion

There should be also some engineer airborne unit but I have here note that research of engineer units is incomplete.

Edited June 11 by Pavel Novak

[Perun]

7 hours ago, Pavel Novak said:

Opened some of my old notes with 1985 war orbat:

Counterintelligence airborne recon company - under national command (not part of Czechoslovak front)

22nd Special task airborne regiment - under Czechoslovak front with three airborne battalions and one special weapons company (ATGM)

1st and 4th Special task airborne recon company - under each army

15x Long range recon company - one in each divisional recon battalion

There should be also some engineer airborne unit but I have here note that research of engineer units is incomplete.

will you share with us that 1985. orbat

[Darth Stalin]

On 6/11/2024 at 10:40 PM, Pavel Novak said:

Opened some of my old notes with 1985 war orbat:

Counterintelligence airborne recon company - under national command (not part of Czechoslovak front)

22nd Special task airborne regiment - under Czechoslovak front with three airborne battalions and one special weapons company (ATGM)

1st and 4th Special task airborne recon company - under each army

15x Long range recon company - one in each divisional recon battalion

There should be also some engineer airborne unit but I have here note that research of engineer units is incomplete.

Why these airborne battalions were named as "výsadkový průzkumný prapor"? (i.e. "airborne recon battalion"?

Were they supposed to be used as Polish 1st Assault Battalion (i.e. "spetsnaz"-like) or rather as 6th Airborne Bde?

EDIT:

1) Do you know the number of that company? And why is it "counterintelligence"?

Was it supposed to be deployed into battalion in wartime?

2) Were those army recon companies intended for deployment into battalions in wartime? (like similar Polish and East German units)?

 

Edited June 13 by Darth Stalin

[Pavel Novak]

On 6/12/2024 at 5:56 AM, Perun said:

will you share with us that 1985. orbat

I will look at it. Divisions aren't really interesting here but front and army formations have something in it as they were in mid of reorganization.

22 hours ago, Darth Stalin said:

Why these airborne battalions were named as "výsadkový průzkumný prapor"? (i.e. "airborne recon battalion"?

Were they supposed to be used as Polish 1st Assault Battalion (i.e. "spetsnaz"-like) or rather as 6th Airborne Bde?

EDIT:

1) Do you know the number of that company? And why is it "counterintelligence"?

Was it supposed to be deployed into battalion in wartime?

2) Were those army recon companies intended for deployment into battalions in wartime? (like similar Polish and East German units)?

 

One of the task of 22nd was to search for atomic launchers deployment behind enemy lines so may-be "recon" in name is there from this reason. I am not sure.

That counterintelligence company doesn't have any numeration. No idea about its composition or why there was need for airborne counterintelligence unit. As it was supposed to stay under national command it could be just quick response unit for domestic threat in case of wartime. Company size is its wartime size.

Army recon companies were just companies in wartime. In peacetime both companies were attached to 22nd for trainig purposes. In wartime they would be independent and subordinated to army HQ (1st and 4th) but still in size of company.

[Darth Stalin]

4 hours ago, Pavel Novak said:

I will look at it. Divisions aren't really interesting here but front and army formations have something in it as they were in mid of reorganization.

One of the task of 22nd was to search for atomic launchers deployment behind enemy lines so may-be "recon" in name is there from this reason. I am not sure.

That counterintelligence company doesn't have any numeration. No idea about its composition or why there was need for airborne counterintelligence unit. As it was supposed to stay under national command it could be just quick response unit for domestic threat in case of wartime. Company size is its wartime size.

Army recon companies were just companies in wartime. In peacetime both companies were attached to 22nd for trainig purposes. In wartime they would be independent and subordinated to army HQ (1st and 4th) but still in size of company.

Thanks a lot, Pavel!