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90s NATO and WP OOB- What if


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My first post, nice to meet you all!

I need some advice on my hobby project- scenario for WW3 in late 1990s, where Soviet union and Warsaw Pact somehow survives and does much better economically then irl.
So I'm trying to construct OOBs for both sides and while I'm mostly done with NATO, I have serious problems with Warsaw Pact:

Poland

I found great article in Polish military history magazine on planned military procurement for LWP for 1991-95:
image.png.48c398bf6c5f57ee11a93d0afb6f9519.png
Some of those are very suprising, like advanced 2s6 for premier armored divisions and Tor SAM (article states thay were supposed to join 8 mechanized division).
But what would be next Polish MBT? T72S, or some domestic modernization of M1 model, like T72M2 Wilk program (maybe joint project with Czechoslovakia)?

East Germany

I found a site which detailes NVA procurement plans for 1990s pretty precisely.
http://militaertechnik-der-nva.de/Tagebuch/Technik2000/Technik2000.html

Among others T-72S, BTR-80, Buk and Tor SAMs, Msta-B artillery.
Somewhere else I read that they were planning to buy 2s19 and even sent some personnel to Soviet Union to train on them, but I couldn't find it ever again and frankly I don't quite believe it.

Czechoslovakia

Here I've got nothing, any help? I suppose they would introduce PRAM-S mortars and maybe STROP-2 SPAAG? Any domestic modernization of T-72?

Soviet Union

The fun begins here!
Do you think T-80U and BMP-3 would finally be deployed to GSFG? Would 2S19 join them by 1997-9?
I assumed that next Soviet MBT would be obj 187, is that likely? Would some be combat ready in Moscow MD by 1997-9?
Were there plans for further modernization of T-64 by the end of cold war?
Also how common woud be thermal optics on tanks by late '90?

I know that's a lot of questions, so bear with me. From what I've seen on discussions here you know too much about all this stuff, and I've learned so much.
And feel free to point me in the right direction, if I posted it in the wrong section :D

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Hello and welcome,

Poland to my knowledge decided already before end of the Cold War not to go with T-72S and instead develop own variant of T-72 so PT-91 could be used. I think that there would be no joint development with Czechoslovakia as bad taste from OT-64 project was still remembered. Tor (SA-15) is possible as its procurement was also in Czechoslovak future plans. No idea about 2S6 Tunguska (SA-19) but it could be possible.

Czechoslovakia

There is question if reduction in second half of 1980s would take effect. There were two - the first one from 1988 was relatively small and it was quickly replaced with 1989 reduction plan (note that this was still before velvet revolution) which took in account CFE negotiation.

Out of weapons acquisition tanks are unclear. Soviet T-72S was considered but there was also domestic Palcat project for new FCS and development of own DU 125mm APFSDS. Modernization of T-54 and T-55 to "AM2" and "AM2B" would continue in 1990s. Under 1989 reduction plan production of tanks in Czechoslovakia would stop completely.

Before reductions it was planned that Motor-Rifle Divisions on western border would rearm second MRR to BMP (BVP-2) so they would have one tank regiment, two regiments with BMP (BVP-1, BVP-2) and one with APC (OT-64).

If there is no 1989 reduction plan there would be no OT-90 (it existed purely due to CFE).

Apart of BPzV Svatava new recon vehicle based on BVP-2s was in development possibly with thermal imagining sight.

Apart of mentioned ShM-85 PRAM-S there was also new 152mm SPGH Ondava in development with longer barrel.

In air defence the mentioned STROP-2 and also Igla-1 (SA-16) for which licence production was negotiated. Tor (SA-15) was also in plans as more S-300PMU (SA-10). However I have never seen any trace of S-300V (SA-12) which are sometimes mentioned in czech forums. Contract for one brigade of Buk (SA-11) was just about to be signed in 1990 before ultimate cancellation.

Regarding aircrafts more MiG-29 were planned. It was actually 1988 reduction plan which apart of already ordered 20 MiG-29 demanded further 48 to final number 68.

 

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T80U was supposed to be the next Soviet top line tank. I'm guessing that would have gone to GSFG, with T72BM surplanting the T72A models in Western USSR, possibly along with T80UD. Yeah, pretty sure BMP 3 and 2S19 would have too, most of the first line kit went straight to Germany after the bugs got wrung out.

T64, I'd not heard of it. But It's conceivable, both T62 and T55 got upgrades to make them still viable in other roles. Conceivably APS  I guess.

Thermal, well command T80Us had it by the end of the Cold War. I suspect that trend would continue, possibly company command vehicles too. I'd be surprised if they could mass produce more than that.

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Twilight 2000 ORBAT?

As far as literature would go. I recommend Military Balances, 1988, 1989, 1990 and 1991. The publications have the last ORBATS for the world and have a small amount of projections for the future. Thought of course, they didn't predict the wall coming down.  There is also The World Defence Almanac 1989 -1990, but I couldn't speak for its quality. 

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Ditto Twilight War 2000.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Tank-War-Central-Warsaw-Versus/dp/0850459044/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3H5B2PPFLON77&keywords=tank+war+central+front&qid=1673292319&sprefix=tank+war+central+front%2Caps%2C91&sr=8-1

This book Tank war Central Front NATO v Warsaw Pact details NATO, Soviet and Warsaw pacts forces down to divisonal level. It lists tanks per country but no information other than tanks. It also gives divisonal locations in Western Germany, Eastern Germany, Check Republic ect...

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26 minutes ago, Pavel Novak said:

Poland to my knowledge decided already before end of the Cold War not to go with T-72S and instead develop own variant of T-72 so PT-91 could be used.

 

This was because the USSR decided that T-72S was a new model and therefore a new license was needed and paid for, which left the Poles nonplussed to say the least. Remember that no single WP country had a full, end to end, production line for the T-72, so there was always a dependency on other Socialist brothers.

For the Soviet Union, it would be the T-72B and the T-80UD as the Army tried to rationalise the decisions made by Ustinov.

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Thank you kindly for replies, especially for Czechoslovak army details. We are not taking CFE into consideration :D

I've read that book of Zaloga. That prologue story, where Soviet T80U battalion is massacred by platoon of M1A2s makes me laugh.
There's another book by him 'Red Thrust', which is quite good analysis of Soviet military art. It depicts future war in the 90s, again written before cold war ended. Here T80 battalion is massacred, by a company of M1A2, so quite an improvement. Highly recommended.

I have 1989 OOB done to the latter, for both sides. I believe it is as accurate as it can be with all tank numbers matching up for WarPact. It is difficult to determine how many T72 of each type were made by '89.

About Object 187 I read that it was not taken into service only because of economic crisis and budget cuts, while it was preferred over Obj 188 (T-90). Is there some more probable model for future Soviet MBT? We are talking late '90s here, so T-95 is probably too late for that. 

The project which I'm working on is scenario for Tiller Modern Campaigns.

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42 minutes ago, B0l0 said:

...I've read that book of Zaloga. That prologue story, where Soviet T80U battalion is massacred by platoon of M1A2s makes me laugh.
There's another book by him 'Red Thrust', which is quite good analysis of Soviet military art. It depicts future war in the 90s, again written before cold war ended. Here T80 battalion is massacred, by a company of M1A2, so quite an improvement. Highly recommended...
 

 

Agreed. But the book was for Western readers so the commies were never going to win :) See also Tom Clancy Red Storm Rising for another 1980's era Cold War gone hot.

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Oh, here is a plan for Yugoslavia from December 1990.:

Tanks:

- T-34s, M-47s - to be retired until end of 1995/1993.

- T-55s - 500 was to be upgraded until the end of 1995 to T-55A1 standard (M-84 level FCS, but no additional armor). 500 unmodernizes should be left also at that point, remaining tanks being retired and sold. Those would be than gradually retired, until ~2000 but this was not "hard date". 500 upgraded ones would be kept in service post 2000. It was planned that there would be ~1600 tanks by 2000 - 500 modernized T-55s in infantry and motorized brigades, ~750 M-84/M-84A and ~250 new M-90/M-91 "Vihor" in armoredand mechanized brigades and another ~90 T-72s that might, or might not be modernized to M-84 standard.

- M-84/84A - license agreement for T-72 was for 1000 tanks produced, so minus 250 for Kuwait maximum number is 750.

- M-90/M-91 Vihor was in final stages of development, in order to keep producing tanks after 1000 M-84s were produced (total M-84 production IRL was somewhat lesst than 700). It was planned that production would have started about 1994-95. New tungsten high performance APFSDS M93 was supposed to be introduced. ERA was being worked on. It appears that "zero series" would have had 2+gen II, with thermals being planned to be introduced in real serial production.

 

Light armor:

- PT-76 - to be retired until 1995 from A category and 1999 form B and R category units and replaced by IBV M-90 (see bellow).

- M-60P APC - to be retired until about 2000, no upgrades were planned, replaced by M-80A/A1 IFVs.

- M-80A IFV - new version, M-80A1 with 30mm cannon and FCS with laser range finder was supposed to enter production in mid-late 1992. After all Mech and Armored units receiving either M-80A or M-80A1, modernization of M-80A to A1 standard would be started. There were no definite plans when this was supposed to be finished.

- IBV 90/IBV M-90 (not official designation, just a project designation) - Recce vehicle based on M-80A1 with thermal instead of 2+ gen II and ground surveyance radar. This was supposed to replace both BRDM-2 and PT-76 in Recce Cos of Mechanized and Armored Brigades

- BRDM-2 - modernization was planned. It included new diesel engine, removal of "belly wheels", side doors, reduction of main armament from 14.5 to 12.7 (in order to free up space inside turret), night observation sight with 2+ gen II. This was supposed to be used in Recce Cos of the Motorized Brigades. Modernization would have been completed by 1995. and by 2000. all non-modernized ones were planned to be retired.

- BOV AFV - production of main version was supposed to stop by 1995. It was to remain main transport for Military Police. Production of BOV-3 AD version was to last until 1993-94 when it would be replaced in production by M-80A2 Foka (see in AD)

- 6x6 APC - by 1995. local production should have started, after which motorized brigades should be converted from trucks to APCs, but with retention of general structure of Plt/Co/Bn and Bde. There were two competing designs, one local based on VAB 6x6, and other was Austrian Pandur.

 

Artillery:

- M-18 Hellcat - retired until 1993.

- M-36 Jackson - no real plan that mentions those. I suspect they would survive until early 2000s as they did historically, because there was simply nothing to replace them.

- 2S1 - additional ones were supposed to be acquired in order to enable every armored and mechanized brigade to have one Bn of 18.

- 152mm Nora-A - production until it replaces all 155mm M-1, 152mm D-20 in active service

- 152mm M-46/86 - production to start about 1993., in order to start replacing 130mm M-46 guns.

- a lot of artillery was scheduled for retirement. 105mm M18/61(n), 105mm M2, part of 105mm M56. 105mm M56 would be modernized with L/33 barrel and kept for single mountain and 7 hill Bdes, each of which was supposed to get single Bn of 18.

- 128mm M63 MRL - upgraded rockets with 15km range introduced

- 128mm M-77 MRL - introduction of FASCAM and submunition rockets (second one happed IRL on very small scale).

- 100mm T-12 ATG - supposed to receive FCS with LRF (instead of LRF being issued 1/plt), but no hard dates. Version on D-30's 3-trail carriage and APU was considered, but not clear if it would have been produced or not and if produced would those be upgrades for already existing guns.

- 152mm truck mounted artillery - project started in 1989., it was estimated that by 1997. those would have started being produced.

- 262mm M-87 Orkan MRL - full scale production expected by 1993. Inercialy corrected rockets were being developed.

By 2000. arty would have following weapons (excluding AT guns):

- 105mm M56 - L/33 - mountain and hill brigades

- 122mm D-30J - infantry brigades

- 122mm 2S1 - armored and mechanized brigades

- 152mm M84 Nora - L/39 - corps level

- 152mm M-46/86 - L/45 - army level

- 128mm M63 MRL - infantry and motorized Bdes

- 128mm M-77 MRL - armored and mech Bdes as well as Corps level

- 262mm M-87 MRL - Army level, supreme HQ reserve

- Locally developed 400mm, 100-150km range guided missile was supposed to be introduced by 2000. to replace Luna-M/Frog-7.

 

 

Air Force and AD:

- Igla license, to replace already produced (upgraded) Strela-2M/A, production supposed to switch by 1994-95.

- Strela-10M2J on modified M-80 IFV hull was supposed to be produced under license (license was acquired in 1989. and single prototype built by 1991). Missiles were supposed to receive same seeker as on Igla by 1995.

- M-80A2 "Foka" twin 30mm AD, with Oerlikon "Gun King" FCS was supposed to enter service by 1994-95.

- Buk (army AD) and S-300 (theater AD) acquisition. Modernization of Kub and Neva. Probably retirement of Dvina/Volkhov.

- Additional two squadrons of MiG-29

- Improved G-4M trainer/light attacker

- upgraded J-22 Orao enabling use more types of PGM

- Novi Avion jet figher project I find unlikely to enter service until 2000 (if ever). It was supposed to be done with French help, as a sort of single engine Rafale.

 

Infantry:

- By the end of 1995. enough 7.62x39mm automatic rifles were supposed to be produced to rearm all active units as well as provide enough weapons for ~2/3 of the reserve. After that, in 1996. production of 5.56mm rifles would start, and as those would arrive to active units firsts additional 7.62x39mm automat rifles would be available to replace semi-auto 7.62x39 rifles among reserves. 7.9x57 M53 machineguns were supposed to be fully replaced by 7.62mm M84 by 1993. in active units (in practice it has happened even faster), and until 2000. in reserves.

- 12.7mm sniper rifle - work started in 1989-90, planned introduction in 1993.

- M90 "Strsljen" LAW was supposed to supplement M80 "Zolja" LAW. Tandem HEAT projectile for M79 Osa was developed.

- ATGMs - very murky area. Additional 9K111 Fagot were supposed to be acquired for motorized and infantry units. M80 Drug project was once again tried, this time as local guidance unit capable with both Fagot and Milan-2 missiles, through it is not clear if there was a real intent to acquire Milan-2 or it was just an export oriented feature. Longer range ATGM was supposed to be acquired to finally start replacing Saggers, but it is not known which one exactly - TOW (BGM-71D TOW-2 IIRC) was (once again) on the table, and Soviets were IIRC offering license for Konkurs. French pushed HOT-2. Short range "Bumbar" (basically Eryx...) was supposed to replace RCLs in infantry and motorized companies, as well as AT companies in infantry and motorized Bns with production starting by ~1995.. At one moment, in 1989. Metis was actually considered, probably as fail-safe for "Bumbar".

Navy:

Replacement of SS-N-2 Styx by RBS-15s on FAC and patrol boats. There were more projects, but i have very little data about navy.

 

Edited by bojan
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12 hours ago, B0l0 said:

It is difficult to determine how many T72 of each type were made by '89.

 

Soviet production:

Object 172M (T-72 Ural): 250

Object 172ME/E1 (Export T-72 Ural): 2.169

Object 172M1 (T-72): 4.067

Object 172M1 (T-72A): 6.578

Object. 172ME3/E4 (T-72M): 1.806 (up to 1988), 258 built in 1989

Object. 184 (T-72B/B1): 5.302 (up to 1988), 890 built in 1989

Of all non-export variants, the Soviet Army received 16.167 up to 1988, and 890 in 1989, but 300 T-72A were sent to Syria after 1982.

Czech production:

T-72: 556

T-72M: 277

T-72M1: 679 up to 1988, 62 built in 1989 (I suspect this is the impact of the cuts already)

Poland:

T-72: 359

T-72M: 214

T-72M1: 485 up to 1991

For completeness:

T-80: 120

T-80B: 5.606 up to 1988, 710 in 1989, plus a handful of T-80U and UDs.
 

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4 hours ago, RETAC21 said:

...but 300 T-72A were sent to Syria after 1982.

No, that is a fuckup with mix of NATO and Soviet designations, tanks sent were T-72 "Ural", just not export ones. Those tanks were designated by NATO as "T-72A", and hence a mixup. Syria did acquire real T-72AVs, but later in the '90s.

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More from Yugoslavia:

Army:

Likely:

- M-80A VK command vehicle to replace BTR-50PK/PU used as command vehicles in mechanized Bdes until 1995 in A and 1999 in B and R units.

- Modernization of AT-3 Sagger, warhead from M90 "Strsljen" LAW was selected, increasing penetration to ~700mm and SACLOS guidance with night sight for infantry launchers.

- 100mm APFSDS (M111 copy), part of T-55A1 modernization project

- RAP and ICM 120mm mortar ammo

- M-84A based ARV

- Modernization of M-84 tanks with TC's override and LWR

Less likely:

- Armored minelayer on M-80A IFV chassis. While prototype was made and testing successful it was a low priority project.

- 120mm SP mortar

- 120mm M91 RCL - 700mm HEAT warhead penetration, HE adopted from 120mm mortar shell. This one is unlikely as there was general concensus that RCLs were past and future was in short-range ATGMs

- Heavy engineer vehicle on T-55 chassis. Early concept development of this one has started after 1973. and intensified a bit after reports of Israeli use of tank based transporters for combat engineers. This was in theory supposed to replace M-60P APCs in the two Pioneer companies of the Engineer Bn of the Mech and Armored Bdes.

- 5+km range, laser guided (Laser beam riding) ATGM "Meteor". Very early stage in 1989:

b9ruOgB.jpg

 

Air Force and AD:

More likely:

- Lasta trainer

- Modernization of M-53/59 SPAA with "Gun King" FCS and new engine and transmission.

- Acquisition of AGM-65D Maverick to supplement already in use AGM-65B

- Modernization of ATGM/MANPADS armed Gazelle helicopter with new ATGMs (not clear what exactly, Meteor - see above in long term perspective), MANPADS (Igla) and night sights (II or thermals)

- Recce VBL-2000 UAV 

rw13wgc.jpg

Less likely:

- 40mm AS-83 AAG Bofors L70 with 99 rounds magazine and remote control ability w/o need for crew to be present at gun

- 40/1 or 40/2mm AS-83 SPAAG - self propelled AA on T-72/M-84 tank chassis, with single or twin L70 Bofors with 99 rounds magazine.

- Grom-2/Grom-2D AGM with AGM-65B/65D seeker

- New IFF

- Gsh-23LU-J gun with 4500 rpm RoF and improved burst limiters

- AGM-65/Grom-2 compatible TER

- Improvement of Giraffe radar with better small target separation

 

Navy:

- C-64 missile boat (improved "Koncar" class with Rbs-15 missiles)

- S-26 mine sweeper

- New family of naval mines

- C-03 large patrol ship ("Kotor" class with Rbs-15)

- radar gun sights for majority of larger caliber coastal arty

Less likely:

- B-73 Submarine with SSMs (Rbs-15)

 

Edited by bojan
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5 hours ago, bojan said:

No, that is a fuckup with mix of NATO and Soviet designations, tanks sent were T-72 "Ural", just not export ones. Those tanks were designated by NATO as "T-72A", and hence a mixup. Syria did acquire real T-72AVs, but later in the '90s.

Now, THAT makes sense. What is the source? not doubting it, just to keep my record straight

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No real source, just a discussion long time ago on some Russian forum (maybe otvaga2004) that got burned into brain*, conclusion was that someone mixed Soviet and NATO designations and then story repeated so many times that it has became commonplace even in some Russian literature. AFAIK UVZ T-72 book does not note export of T-72A to Syria also, and it has pretty detailed "what got exported when and to whom", including new to me export of single T-72K to Yugoslavia.

Also, we have not seen single pic of T-72A (vs T-72AV that were plentiful) coming from Syria from the war, and we have seen all sort of exotics.

 

*Pity that ability does not translate to a more boring, but probably way more useful stuff. :( 

 

Edited by bojan
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Thank you all again for all the info, especially for detailed Soviet tank production numbers and Yugoslav development plans!

So here are are hardware numbers for Soviet army in 1998 (NSWP and NATO to follow, also detailed OOB might come later):

Tanks:
GSFG and NGP:
10% T64BV, many of those upgraded to fictional BM variant (K5 ERA, new FCS, no thermals)
40% T80U/UD- 1 out of 10 with thermals
50% T80BV
CFG and SFG:
50/50 T72B/T72BM (K5 ERA, new FCS, no thermals)
Soviet military districts:
Mostly T72B suplemented by T80U/UD in high readiness units
lower readines units with T72A and T62M+ T64B in Ukraine
less than 1000 next generation MBT (obj 187) in best units

IFV:
30% BMP-3
70% BMP-2
APC:
90% BTR-80
10% BTR-80A
Airborne IFV:
BMD-3 30%
BMD-2 70%
Divisional artillery:
70% 2S3
30% 2S19
Divisional MLRS:
80% BM-21 Grad
20% Prima (improved BM-21)
Heavy MRLS:
50/50 BM30/BM27
Regimental artilery:
90% 2S1
10% 2S31 or 2S34 (which is more plausible?)
Divisional SAM:
50/50 SA-8/SA-15
AAA:
100% 2S6 in groups of forces
Regimental SAM:
SA-13 (any ideas on replacement?)
Helicopters:
Groups of forces:
50% Ka-50
50% Mi-24V/P (or future variant?)
Soviet military districts:
Mi-28N 80pcs, rest Mi-24

other:
BRDM with AT-5 partly replaced by BMP-3 with Kornet
BRM-1k partly replaced by BRM-3k(GSR and thermals)
T-12 ATG partly replaced by 2A45 sprut
2S23 replaces towed mortars in some best regiments

I don't forsee major TO&E changes on both sides, just equipment upgrades instead.

What do you think about that? Keep in mind that eastern economy is doing better than otl.
I want to play with modern stuff, but let's keep it as realistic as possible :D

 

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Re Czechoslovakia

If there is no reduction (not 1988, no 1989) T-34-85 would stay in the list little bit longer. They were stored practically just for mobilisation 60th reserve motor-rifle division which was sort of internal security formation with note "for use on cs territory only". 1989 war plan deleted such formations from war orbat.

Also without reductions the rearmament with T-72 would continue. 9th tank division finished complete rearmament in 1988 and in 1989 T-72 started going to 2nd MRD but the process was eventually stopped. In next years also 19th and 20th MRDs were planned to get T-72. But in all three MRDs only tank regiment was planned to get T-72 while tank battalions in MRRs would kept its modernized T-54AM1 (while tank regiments have still T-54AM because of planned rearmament).

I have no information which other division would get T-72 in case of no reductions but I can say that because 4th TD had T-55AM1/AM2 it would probably not get T-72. Similarly with 3rd MRD which had half of its tanks modernized to T-54AM2 and probably in 1990s would continue to modernize rest of them. But 15th MRD could possibly get T-72 in mid 1990s. No idea regarding 13rd and 14th TDs (though they had few T-72 attached for training purposes). Out of standard mobilization divisions 16th TD was already fully equipped with T-55AM1 but no idea what was planned for rest.

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11 hours ago, RETAC21 said:

Soviet production:

Object 172M (T-72 Ural): 250

Object 172ME/E1 (Export T-72 Ural): 2.169

Object 172M1 (T-72): 4.067

Object 172M1 (T-72A): 6.578

Object. 172ME3/E4 (T-72M): 1.806 (up to 1988), 258 built in 1989

Object. 184 (T-72B/B1): 5.302 (up to 1988), 890 built in 1989

Of all non-export variants, the Soviet Army received 16.167 up to 1988, and 890 in 1989, but 300 T-72A were sent to Syria after 1982.

Czech production:

T-72: 556

T-72M: 277

T-72M1: 679 up to 1988, 62 built in 1989 (I suspect this is the impact of the cuts already)

Poland:

T-72: 359

T-72M: 214

T-72M1: 485 up to 1991

For completeness:

T-80: 120

T-80B: 5.606 up to 1988, 710 in 1989, plus a handful of T-80U and UDs.
 

Czechoslovak production ended in 1991 but yes already in 1989 cs army order was significantly reduced. See:

 and addition here:

 

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2 hours ago, bojan said:

No real source, just a discussion long time ago on some Russian forum (maybe otvaga2004) that got burned into brain*, conclusion was that someone mixed Soviet and NATO designations and then story repeated so many times that it has became commonplace even in some Russian literature. AFAIK UVZ T-72 book does not note export of T-72A to Syria also, and it has pretty detailed "what got exported when and to whom", including new to me export of single T-72K to Yugoslavia.

Also, we have not seen single pic of T-72A (vs T-72AV that were plentiful) coming from Syria from the war, and we have seen all sort of exotics.

 

*Pity that ability does not translate to a more boring, but probably way more useful stuff. :( 

 

Thanks!

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14 hours ago, Pavel Novak said:

Re Czechoslovakia

If there is no reduction (not 1988, no 1989) T-34-85 would stay in the list little bit longer. They were stored practically just for mobilisation 60th reserve motor-rifle division which was sort of internal security formation with note "for use on cs territory only". 1989 war plan deleted such formations from war orbat.

Also without reductions the rearmament with T-72 would continue. 9th tank division finished complete rearmament in 1988 and in 1989 T-72 started going to 2nd MRD but the process was eventually stopped. In next years also 19th and 20th MRDs were planned to get T-72. But in all three MRDs only tank regiment was planned to get T-72 while tank battalions in MRRs would kept its modernized T-54AM1 (while tank regiments have still T-54AM because of planned rearmament).

I have no information which other division would get T-72 in case of no reductions but I can say that because 4th TD had T-55AM1/AM2 it would probably not get T-72. Similarly with 3rd MRD which had half of its tanks modernized to T-54AM2 and probably in 1990s would continue to modernize rest of them. But 15th MRD could possibly get T-72 in mid 1990s. No idea regarding 13rd and 14th TDs (though they had few T-72 attached for training purposes). Out of standard mobilization divisions 16th TD was already fully equipped with T-55AM1 but no idea what was planned for rest.

Amazing informations again!

What is the difference between T54AM1/2 and T55AM1/2, are they brought to the same standard?

So in 1995 it would look something like this?

1. TD- T72 in TRs and MRR, motor rifle companies in tank regiments with BVP-1, motor rifle regiment with BVP-2
9.TD- T72 in TRs and MRR, motor rifle companies in tank regiments with BVP-1, motor rifle regiment with BVP-2
4. TD- T55AM1/2 in TRs and MRR, motor rifle companies in tank regiments with BVP-1, motor rifle regiment with BVP-1
13. TD- T55, BVP-1
14. TD- T55, BVP-1
16. TD (mobilization)- T55AM1
2. MRD- T72 in TR, T55AM1 in MRRs, 1 MRR with BVP-1, 1 MRR with BVP-2, 1 MRR with OT-64
3. MRD- T55AM2 in TR, T55AM2 in MRRs, 1 MRR with BVP-1, 2 MRRs with OT-64
15. MRD- T72 in TR, T55AM2 in MRRs, 1 MRR with BVP-1, 1 MRR with BVP-2, 1 MRR with OT-64
19. MRD- T72 in TR, T55AM1 in MRRs, 1 MRR with BVP-1, 1 MRR with BVP-2, 1 MRR with OT-64
20. MRD- T72 in TR, T55AM1 in MRRs, 1 MRR with BVP-1, 1 MRR with BVP-2, 1 MRR with OT-64

That gives about 1000 T-72, 1330 T55AM, 640 T-55 and 720 BVP-2
Of those 320 T-72 Ural or M and the rest M1 (could basic T-72 be modernized to T-72M1, or is it too costly?)
As I understand every division would have Osa SAM, and 2S1 and DANA i Arty Rgt
So who would get new stuff first (Strop-2, Ondava, Pram-S, recon BVP-2, SA-15), I am under an impression that 1 and 9 TDs were first in line.
Were there any plans to expand MR companies to battalions in Tank regiments?

Any more info on domestic variant of T-72? Was it as extensive modernization as PT-91? Would it get into production by 1995?
I would not use M2 Moderna due to reliance on western tech (and those autocannons seem impractical).
For 1998 I would add 300 of those modernized T-72 to the arsenal.
 

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T-54AM1/AM2 are in all tactical aspects same as T-55AM1/AM2 with only difference that modernization was done from T-54.

I am not aware of any plans to expand MR companies in tank regiments (and only tank regiments in tank divisions had them).

I doubt there would be any existing T-72 modernization by 1995. If Palcat programme (to my knowledge it was just about FCS) is finished it would go at first to newly produced tanks. Though older T-72 still could get new ammo. Btw. from 1984 one tank regiment was rearmed with T-72 each year.

PRAM-S would go to motor-rifle battalions with BMP instead of towed PRAM-L which would be left in MR battalions with APC but in 1988/89 lot of BMP equipped battalions had PRAM-L.

 

For 1995 I will make this list (no 1988 and no 1989 reduction and thus also 1989 war and mobilisation plan modified), changes from 1988/89 underlined:

 

1st Tank Division (about 75 % manpower in peacetime)

- SSM battalion - Tochka (SS-21)

- MRL battalion - RM-70

- Recon battalion - BVP-1, BRM-1K, BPzV-1 Svatava + few BPzV-2 (my fantasy) and specialized equipment (radars etc.)

- 3x tank regiment - recon companies with BVP-1, BRM-1K, BPzV-1 + few BPzV-2 (my fantasy); tank battalions with T-72 (cs ones with laser rangefinder) except one battalion which had T-72M (same armor as T-72 but with smoke GL, full skirts and more ammo carried); MR companies with BVP-1;  SPGH battalions each with two batteries with 2S1 Gvozdika, regimental AA batteries each with platoon with S-10M (SA-13) and platoon with STROP-2 (my fantasy, originally PLDvK-53/59)

- motor-rifle regiment - recon company with BVP-1, BRM-1K, BPzV-1 + few BPzV-2 (my fantasy); MR battalions with BVP-2; tank battalion with T-72, SPGH battalion with three batteries with 2S1; AA battery with S-1M (SA-9) and STROP-2 (my fantasy, originally PLDvK-53/59); AT battery with three platoons with 9P133 (AT-3)

- artillery regiment - two battalions with ShKH-77 Dana and one battalion with D-30

- SAM regiment - OSA-AKM (SA-8)

 

9th Tank Division (about 75 % manpower in peacetime)

- SSM battalion - Tochka (SS-21)

- MRL battalion - RM-70

- Recon battalion - BVP-1, BPzV-1 Svatava, OT-65 and specialized equipment (radars etc.)

- 3x tank regiment - recon companies with BVP-1, BPzV-1 and OT-65; four tank battalions with T-72M, five battalions with T-72M1; MR companies with BVP-1;  SPGH battalions each with two batteries with 2S1 Gvozdika (originally only one regiment had them), regimental AA batteries each with platoon with S-10M (SA-13) and platoon with STROP-2 (my fantasy, originally PLDvK-53/59)

- motor-rifle regiment - recon company with BVP-1, BPzV-1 and OT-65; MR battalions with BVP-2; tank battalion with T-72M1, SPGH battalion with three batteries with 2S1; AA battery with S-10M (SA-13) and STROP-2 (my fantasy, originally PLDvK-53/59); AT battery with three platoons with 9P133 (AT-3)

- artillery regiment - two battalions with ShKH-77 Dana and one battalion with D-30

- SAM regiment - Kub-M3 (SA-6)

 

4th Tank Division (about 50 % manpower in peacetime)

- SSM battalion - Luna-M (FROG-7)

- MRL battalion - RM-70 (part of artillery regiment in peacetime but independent after mobilization)

- Recon battalion - BVP-1, BPzV-1 Svatava (planned rearmament), OT-65 and specialized equipment (radars etc.)

- 3x tank regiment - recon companies with BVP-1, BPzV-1 and OT-65; three tank battalions with T-55AM2, six battalions with T-55AM1 (not exactly sure with numbers but probably); MR companies with BVP-1; artillery battalions with RM-51, regimental AA batteries each with PLDvK-53/59

- motor-rifle regiment - recon company with BVP-1, BPzV-1 and OT-65; MR battalions with BVP-1; tank battalion with T-55AM1, artillery battalion with 122mm vz. 38/74; AA battery with PLDvK-53/59; AT battery with three platoons with 9P133 (AT-3)

- artillery regiment - two battalions with ShKH-77 Dana (originally one Dana, possible rearmament) and one battalion with D-30

- SAM regiment - Kub-M3 (SA-6)

 

13th Tank Division (about 35 % manpower in peacetime)

- SSM battalion - Luna-M (FROG-7)

- MRL battalion - RM-70 (part of artillery regiment in peacetime but independent after mobilization)

- Recon battalion - BVP-1, BPzV-1 Svatava, OT-65 and specialized equipment (radars etc.)

- 3x tank regiment - recon companies with BVP-1, BPzV-1 and OT-65; nine battalions with T-55A; MR companies with BVP-1; artillery battalions with RM-51; regimental AA batteries each with PLDvK-53/59

- motor-rifle regiment - recon company with BVP-1, BPzV-1 and OT-65; MR battalions with BVP-1; tank battalion with T-55A, artillery battalion with 122mm vz. 38/74; AA battery with PLDvK-53/59; AT battery with three platoons with 9P133 (AT-3)

- artillery regiment - one battalion with ShKH-77 Dana and two battalion with D-30 (I am not sure if it had already all D-30 in 1989)

- AA regiment - 57mm S-60

 

14th Tank Division (about 35 % manpower in peacetime, also in peacetime it had 2x tank regiments and 2x motor-rifle regiments due to mobilization duties)

- SSM battalion - Luna-M (FROG-7)

- MRL battalion - RM-70 (part of artillery regiment in peacetime but independent after mobilization)

- Recon battalion - BVP-1, BPzV-1 Svatava, OT-65 and specialized equipment (radars etc.)

- 3x tank regiment (wartime) - recon companies with BVP-1, BPzV-1 and OT-65; nine battalions with T-55A; MR companies with BVP-1; artillery battalions with RM-51; regimental AA batteries each with PLDvK-53/59

- motor-rifle regiment - recon company with BVP-1, BPzV-1 and OT-65; MR battalions with BVP-1; tank battalion with T-55A, artillery battalion with 122mm vz. 38/74; AA battery with PLDvK-53/59; AT battery with three platoons with 9P133 (AT-3)

- artillery regiment - one battalion with ShKH-77 Dana and two battalion with D-30 (I am not sure if it had already all D-30 in 1989)

- AA regiment - 57mm S-60

 

16th Tank Division (mobilization division, equipment stored with 1st TD in peacetime)

- SSM battalion - Luna-M (FROG-7) // final note: it was still here up to 1989 and with FROG-7

- MRL battalion - RM-70

- Recon battalion - BVP-1, BPzV-1 Svatava, OT-65 and specialized equipment (radars etc.)

- 3x tank regiment - recon companies with BVP-1, BPzV-1 and OT-65; nine battalions with T-55AM1; MR companies with BVP-1; artillery battalions with RM-51; regimental AA batteries each with PLDvK-53/59

- motor-rifle regiment - recon company with BVP-1, BPzV-1 and OT-65; MR battalions with BVP-1; tank battalion with T-55AM1, artillery battalion with 122mm vz. 38/74; AA battery with PLDvK-53/59; AT battery with three platoons with 9P133 (AT-3)

- artillery regiment - two battalions with 122mm vz. 38/74 and one battalion with 100mm vz. 53 (I am not exactly sure with this)

- AA regiment - 57mm S-60 (or possibly domestic 57mm CS)

 

17th Tank Division (mobilization division, equipment stored with 13th TD in peacetime)

// no SSM battalion

- MRL battalion - RM-70

- Recon battalion - BVP-1, OT-65A, OT-65 and specialized equipment (radars etc.)

- 3x tank regiment - recon companies with BVP-1, OT-65A and OT-65; nine battalions with T-55A; MR companies with BVP-1; artillery battalions with RM-51; regimental AA batteries each with PLDvK-53/59

- motor-rifle regiment - recon company with BVP-1, OT-65A and OT-65; MR battalions with BVP-1; tank battalion with T-55A, artillery battalion with 122mm vz. 38/74; AA battery with PLDvK-53/59; AT battery with three platoons with 9P133 (AT-3)

- artillery regiment - two battalions with 122mm vz. 38/74 and one battalion with 100mm vz. 53 (I am not exactly sure with this)

- AA regiment - 57mm S-60 (or possibly domestic 57mm CS)

 

to be continued (when I have time)

Edited by Pavel Novak
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On 1/9/2023 at 4:53 PM, B0l0 said:

My first post, nice to meet you all!

I need some advice on my hobby project- scenario for WW3 in late 1990s, where Soviet union and Warsaw Pact somehow survives and does much better economically then irl.
So I'm trying to construct OOBs for both sides and while I'm mostly done with NATO, I have serious problems with Warsaw Pact:

Poland

I found great article in Polish hobby magazine on planned military procurement for LWP for 1991-95:
image.png.48c398bf6c5f57ee11a93d0afb6f9519.png
Some of those are very suprising, like advanced 2s6 for premier armored divisions and Tor SAM (article states thay were supposed to join 8 mechanized division).
But what would be next Polish MBT? T72S, or some domestic modernization of M1 model, like T72M2 Wilk program (maybe joint project with Czechoslovakia)?

Interesting to see 2S25 Sprut, as in the early 90s it was still in development, so Polish officers would not have been able to test the vehicle.

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Continuing with czechoslovak motor-rifle divisions in hypothetic 1995 year without reductions (changes against 1988/89 underlined)

 

20th Motor-Rifle Division (about 75 % manpower in peacetime)

- SSM battalion - Tochka (SS-21) (had FROG-7 but could get SS-21 by 1995)

- MRL battalion - RM-70

- Recon battalion - BVP-1, BPzV-1 Svatava, OT-65 and specialized equipment (radars etc.)

- 3x motor-rifle regiment - recon companies with BVP-1, BPzV-1 and OT-65 (not sure if it had BPzV-1 already in 1989 but if not was about to get them); one regiment with BVP-1, one regiment with OT-64A and one regiment with BVP-2 (rearmed from OT-64A); regimental tank battalions with T-54AM1; originally only the BVP-1 equipped regiment had 2S1 Gvozdika battalion (three batteries), OT-64A equipped regiment had D-30 and rearmed BVP-2 regiment would probably also get 2S1 battalion with three batteries; regimental AA batteries with S-10M (SA-13) and PLDvK-53/59 (originally without SA-13); regimental AT batteries with three platoons with 9P133 (AT-3)

- tank regiment - recon company with BVP-1, BPzV-1 and OT-65 (not sure if it had BPzV-1 already in 1989 but if not was about to get them); tank battalions with T-72M1 (planned rearmament); // without MR company;  SPGH battalion with two batteries with 2S1 Gvozdika; regimental AA battery with S-10M (SA-13) and PLDvK-53/59 (originally without SA-13)

- artillery regiment - two battalions with ShKH-77 Dana (originally one Dana, probable rearmament), one battalion with D-30 and anti-tank battalion with two batteries with 100mm vz. 53 and one battery (two platoons) with 9P133 (AT-3)

- SAM regiment - Kub-M3 (SA-6)

 

19th Motor-Rifle Division (about 75 % manpower in peacetime)

- SSM battalion - Luna-M (FROG-7)

- MRL battalion - RM-70

- Recon battalion - BVP-1, BPzV-1 Svatava, OT-65 and specialized equipment (radars etc.)

- 3x motor-rifle regiment - recon companies with BVP-1, BPzV-1 and OT-65 (not sure if it had BPzV-1 already in 1989 but if not was about to get them); one regiment with BVP-1, one regiment with OT-64A and one regiment with BVP-2 (rearmed from OT-64A); regimental tank battalions with T-54AM1; originally only the BVP-1 equipped regiment had 2S1 Gvozdika battalion (three batteries), OT-64A equipped regiment had D-30 and rearmed BVP-2 regiment would probably also get 2S1 battalion with three batteries; regimental AA batteries with S-10M (SA-13) and PLDvK-53/59 (originally without SA-13); regimental AT batteries with three platoons with 9P133 (AT-3)

- tank regiment - recon company with BVP-1, BPzV-1 and OT-65 (not sure if it had BPzV-1 already in 1989 but if not was about to get them); tank battalions with T-72M1 (planned rearmament); // without MR company;  SPGH battalion with two batteries with 2S1 Gvozdika; regimental AA battery with S-10M (SA-13) and PLDvK-53/59 (originally without SA-13)

- artillery regiment - two battalions with ShKH-77 Dana (originally one Dana, probable rearmament), one battalion with D-30 and anti-tank battalion with two batteries with 100mm vz. 53 and one battery (two platoons) with 9P133 (AT-3)

- SAM regiment - Kub-M3 (SA-6)

 

2nd Motor-Rifle Division (about 75 % manpower in peacetime)

- SSM battalion - Luna-M (FROG-7)

- MRL battalion - RM-70

- Recon battalion - BVP-1, BPzV-1 Svatava, OT-65 and specialized equipment (radars etc.)

- 3x motor-rifle regiment - recon companies with BVP-1, BPzV-1 and OT-65 (not sure if it had BPzV-1 already in 1989 but if not was about to get them); one regiment with BVP-1, one regiment with OT-64A and one regiment with BVP-2 (rearmed from OT-64A); regimental tank battalions with T-54AM1; originally only the BVP-1 equipped regiment had 2S1 Gvozdika battalion (three batteries), OT-64A equipped regiment had D-30 and rearmed BVP-2 regiment would probably also get 2S1 battalion with three batteries; regimental AA batteries with PLDvK-53/59 (maybe could also get SA-13 but speed of rearmament would probalby not allow that if I have given that to previous two divisions); regimental AT batteries with three platoons with 9P133 (AT-3)

- tank regiment - recon company with BVP-1, BPzV-1 and OT-65 (not sure if it had BPzV-1 already in 1989 but if not was about to get them); tank battalions with T-72M1 (planned rearmament); // without MR company;  SPGH battalion with two batteries with 2S1 Gvozdika (originally doesn't have them but probably on the list to receive them); regimental AA battery with PLDvK-53/59 (maybe could also get SA-13 but speed of rearmament would probably not allow that if I have given that to previous two divisions)

- artillery regiment - two battalions with ShKH-77 Dana (originally one Dana, probable rearmament), one battalion with D-30 and anti-tank battalion with two batteries with 100mm vz. 53 and one battery (two platoons) with 9P133 (AT-3)

- SAM regiment - Kub-M3 (SA-6)

 

15th Motor-Rifle Division (about 50 % manpower in peacetime)

- SSM battalion - Luna-M (FROG-7)

- MRL battalion - RM-70

- Recon battalion - BVP-1, BPzV-1 Svatava (planned rearmament), OT-65 and specialized equipment (radars etc.)

- 3x motor-rifle regiment - recon companies with BVP-1, BPzV-1 and OT-65; one regiment with BVP-1, two regiments with OT-64A (possible also rearming another regiment to BVP-2 but not sure here); regimental tank battalions with T-54AM2B (not sure with this could actually get new T-72); all regimental artillery battalions with D-30 (I am not sure but it is possible that in 1988/89 some of them had still 122mm vz. 38/74); regimental AA batteries each with S-10M (SA-13) and PLDvK-53/59 (interestingly these regiments had already SA-13 by 1989 or finishing rearmament); regimental AT battery in BVP-1 equipped regiment has 9P133 (AT-3) other two regimental AT batteries with 9P148 (AT-5) (originally had OT-64 with manportable AT-3, possible rearmament)

- tank regiment - recon companies with BVP-1, BPzV-1 and OT-65; tank battalions with new T-72 variant (probable rearmament, could be T-72M1 with Palcat FCS or T-72S, though it could be also possible that new T-72 variant would go to 1st TD and this division would get older T-72 from 1st TD); // without MR company; artillery battalion with RM-51; regimental AA battery with S-10M (SA-13) and PLDvK-53/59

- artillery regiment - two battalions with ShKH-77 Dana (originally one Dana, probable rearmament), one battalion with D-30 and anti-tank battalion with two batteries with 100mm vz. 53 and one battery (two platoons) with 9P148 (AT-5) (originally the third battery had also 100mm ATG, possible rearmament)

- SAM regiment - Tor (SA-15) (planned rearmament)

 

to be continued (when I have time)

Edited by Pavel Novak
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