Does anyone own "The Tiger Tank and Allied Intelligence: Capabilities and Performance" by Bruce Newsome?

[micheal kenny]

35 minutes ago, Erik2 said:

Why would the Tigerfibel be printed with a faulty figure, and coming from where exactly?

Like I said before, a combat report says that the engines in pre-Tiger German tanks had 5000 km lifespans, so 5000 km Tiger engines would only be in line with previous reliability.

The mention in the Tiger Fibel is NOT  an indication of engine life. Its on a page which is distinctly different than the pages that do contain technical data. Its there to make a point just like the bit that says :

Machine translation. 

if you drive 7 km your wide tracks will shake the dust of 1 hectare or 4 acres of ground. You will be widely recognized and lose your most effective weapon - the surprise.

However, while driving those 7km, a tiger consumes 170,000 liters of the same polluted air in which you hold your breath

In 15 minutes it has to swallow as much dust as you would breathe in in 10 days if you drove continuously at the dustiest spot at the rear.

Your two air filters have to digest everything, they are your only ones. Weapons against this mortal enemy
 

I have never seen a 'combat report' that confirms/validates  a  5,000 km  engine life.

Please provide a link(s) to these reports.

Edited May 3, 2023 by micheal kenny

[Erik2]

2 hours ago, micheal kenny said:

The mention in the Tiger Fibel is NOT  an indication of engine life. Its on a page which is distinctly different than the pages that do contain technical data. Its there to make a point just like the bit that says :

Machine translation. 

if you drive 7 km your wide tracks will shake the dust of 1 hectare or 4 acres of ground. You will be widely recognized and lose your most effective weapon - the surprise.

However, while driving those 7km, a tiger consumes 170,000 liters of the same polluted air in which you hold your breath

In 15 minutes it has to swallow as much dust as you would breathe in in 10 days if you drove continuously at the dustiest spot at the rear.

Your two air filters have to digest everything, they are your only ones. Weapons against this mortal enemy
 

I have never seen a 'combat report' that confirms/validates  a  5,000 km  engine life.

Please provide a link(s) to these reports.

This report from late 1941 says that the tanks of Panzer Regiment 33 have suffered a high rate of engine failures because many of their tanks have passed 5000 km and from previous experience this is the lifespan of an engine.

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/nodes/8963#page/5/mode/inspect/zoom/7

Edited May 3, 2023 by Erik2

[Manic Moran]

I wonder if there isn't confusion in comparison due to two factors.

1) US engines tended to be rated in 'hours', not 'miles' or 'kilometers'. The M4's original radial was rated for about 250 hours, but you know that the tank was not cruising at 20mph for the full 250 hours (Just shy of 8,000km), and if you think about it, that's less than a month of 10-hour days. The soviets seemed to report about 8km per hour of engine running. The GAAs were more like 500 hours. So, if you want to convert 5,000km on the odometer into 'how many hours on the clock', at whatever speed Tiger trundles around at,  if you give Tiger the same average amount of time moving and the same speed, 5,000km would be 625 hours of life. That seems unrealistic in comparison, especially if one presumes that Tiger's average accumulation of mileage would in fact be less than that of a Sherman's due to speed differences. I'm sure Maybach made great engines, but Ford wasn't known for being terrible either.

2) How is 'engine life' defined? Is it "the engine is done, cannot be overhauled any more, and the metal needs to go for recycling" or "The engine needs to be pulled out of the line, rebuilt/heavily overhauled, and can be sent back into a tank in a near zero-hour condition". That may account for some of the difference, but I've not the time to look up definitions right now.

 

[micheal kenny]

46 minutes ago, Erik2 said:

This report from late 1941 says that the tanks of Panzer Regiment 33 have suffered a high rate of engine failures because many of their tanks have passed 5000 km and from previous experience this is the lifespan of an engine.

https://wwii.germandocsinrussia.org/de/nodes/8963#page/5/mode/inspect/zoom/7

My fault for not being specific.

Where are the reports that Tigers were getting 5,000 km?

 

The only (as in single) mention of that number  is in The Tiger Fibel.

Newsome latched on to this and  elevates it into an 'official' 5,000 km engine life.

He then compounds this duplicity by pretending he has a second source for the 5,000 km from Carius when it is obvious that Carius is just quoting his original 'source' the Tiger Fibel. Newsome is very much a man on a mission who is not going to let awkward things like facts get in the way of his crusade.  He is a purveyor of 'alternate facts' and he sets out to be a reference source for 'those who want to believe'.   

 

[Erik2]

57 minutes ago, micheal kenny said:

My fault for not being specific.

Where are the reports that Tigers were getting 5,000 km?

 

The only (as in single) mention of that number  is in The Tiger Fibel.

Newsome latched on to this and  elevates it into an 'official' 5,000 km engine life.

He then compounds this duplicity by pretending he has a second source for the 5,000 km from Carius when it is obvious that Carius is just quoting his original 'source' the Tiger Fibel. Newsome is very much a man on a mission who is not going to let awkward things like facts get in the way of his crusade.  He is a purveyor of 'alternate facts' and he sets out to be a reference source for 'those who want to believe'.   

 

If  1. the manual says that this is the lifespan of the Tiger engine, probably after reliability trials, 2. other German tanks could get 5000 km, and the Tiger had a similar hp/tonne ratio as those, 3. the Tiger engine was eventually regarded as reliable by its crews when the teething issues were sorted, 4. Carius quoting the Tigerfibel could be him confirming its data with his memory as best he could, I don't see any strange leaps in logic with assuming the Tiger engine probably had a 5000 km lifespan in combat.

Edited May 3, 2023 by Erik2

[micheal kenny]

26 minutes ago, Erik2 said:

If  1. the manual says that this is the lifespan of the Tiger engine, probably after reliability trials, 2. other German tanks could get 5000 km, and the Tiger had a similar hp/tonne ratio as those, 3. the Tiger engine was eventually regarded as reliable by its crews when the teething issues were sorted, 4. Carius quoting the Tigerfibel could be him confirming its data with his memory as best he could, I don't see any strange leaps in logic with assuming the Tiger engine probably had a 5000 km lifespan in combat.

So the short answer is there are no references  confirming  the 5,000 km claim, none at all. 

 

 

 

Edited May 3, 2023 by micheal kenny

[Harold Jones]

Is it possible the Tiger Fibel was quoting Carius? 😈

[R011]

17 hours ago, micheal kenny said:

Mis-remembered? Carius made-up a claim he ambushed 28 IS-2 on the night of July 22. 

So what if he did?

Quote

 

I presume you mean that Carius was given an official figure' of 5,000 km.

If so can you provide a link to a source that gives this official figure?

Note that the  Tiger Fibel claim is not an 'Official Figure' .

 

See Erik2's answer.  Tigerfibel was an oficial publication.

Edited May 3, 2023 by R011

[R011]

10 hours ago, bojan said:

Memoirs are not even secondary sources and are notoriously unreliable. They can get you general "feel" about specific issues, but quoting any numbers from memoirs is a fool's errand.

Carius wouldn't necesarily recall the exact numbers without looking them up, but if the figures were nowhere close to his recolection, he wouldn't use them.  I'm pretty sure most experienced tankers here have a pretty good idea of engine life in the tanks they used and would question a number wildly out of line with their memories.

[R011]

2 hours ago, Harold Jones said:

Is it possible the Tiger Fibel was quoting Carius? 😈

Tigerfibel was an official German Army wartime-produced manual for tank crews.  This would be some time before Carius wote his memoirs.

[Harold Jones]

But the Tiger Fibel authors got their info from somewhere so why not interviews with actual tank crewmen. I'm not saying they did since I was just making a bad joke but it is not completely impossible.

[R011]

18 minutes ago, Harold Jones said:

But the Tiger Fibel authors got their info from somewhere so why not interviews with actual tank crewmen. I'm not saying they did since I was just making a bad joke but it is not completely impossible.

As it was an official manual, probably from tests, feedback from troops, rmaintenance reports, etc.  I would think the 5000 km figure came more from tests and maintenance records than conversations with junior oofficer tank crew.  

[micheal kenny]

7 hours ago, R011 said:

Carius wouldn't necesarily recall the exact numbers without looking them up, but if the figures were nowhere close to his recolection, he wouldn't use them. 

So why did he write that he 'knocked out'  28 IS-2 tanks late on July 22 1944 when, if he did but bother to 'look them up' he would have found that his memory was faulty? 

Your faith in Carius is touching but his own book proves that he most certainly did use information (from his memory)  that was at odds with reality.

 

It has long been known that Carius is suspect and I am surprised so many still cling to the 'if Carius said it then it must be true' fantasy.  This from AHF back in 2010 shows how far Carius strayed from reality.

 

 

 

1) Schwaner's report gives a more realistic idea of action on 22.07.1944 than Carius' memoirs.
2) The mysterious heavy tank brigade never existed. In fact the company commanded by Carius was in action against the 41st Tank brigade (T-34 and M3 medium tanks) and the 48th Guards Heavy Tank Regiment, both from the 5th Tank Corps. The first lost some 10 T-34 destroyed at Malinovo/Malinava on 22.07, the latter - 5 IS-2.
3) Some brigade commander (major, HSU) killed by Carius is a pure fantasy. The most high-ranking Soviet tank officer killed at Malinovo on this day was captain Orlovskiy, CO of the 1st battalion, 41st Tank Brigade.
4) Ambush east of Malinovo, in which Carius allegedly destroyed 28 Soviet tanks seems to a fantasy as well. At least no Soviet tank unit ever noticed that it was ambushed in that area.

 

Edited May 4, 2023 by micheal kenny

[micheal kenny]

6 hours ago, R011 said:

So what if he did?

 

Your argument is that Carius would not claim a 5000km figure if it was not true.

You then want to ignore evidence from his own Commanders AAR  that Carius most certainly did invent a detailed claim  he (and/or his Unit) destroyed 28 IS-2 late on July 22 1944 that is flat-out 'not true'.   

 

 

This is the claim used in TIC 1 that was compiled from the account by Carius:

 

first 6  T-34 were knocked out. Then  Carius and another Tiger got 17 IS-2 and 5 T-34. Later the same day Carius and 5 other Tigers knocked out 28 more tanks.

 

A total of   56 tanks claimed

 

This is the  period tally tally by the commander :

 

Successes: 23 tanks knocked out (17 T43s, 6 Josef
Stalins)
6 heavy antitank guns destroyed
A number of trucks destroyed
Friendly losses: 2 “Tigers” rendered inoperable by antitank
gun and tank cannon hits
Personnel losses: None

 

A total of 23 tanks claimed.

 

At best Carius has a very bad memory and did not even bother to read his own Unit paperwork before writing his account of the action on July 22 1944. 

 

Edited May 4, 2023 by micheal kenny

[R011]

23 minutes ago, micheal kenny said:

Your argument is that Carius would not claim a 5000km figure if it was not true.

You then want to ignore evidence from his own Commanders AAR  that Carius most certainly did invent a detailed claim  he (and/or his Unit) destroyed 28 IS-2 late on July 22 1944 that is flat-out 'not true'.   

 

If he was lying about his kill count, then it was to make hinself look better.  He had no reason to lie about time between engine overhauls.  If he recalled the events of one day wrong, then so what?  I can't recall my exact activities on any particular date fifteen years ago, but still recall a fair bit of   data about systems I used half a century ago.  He obviously had the Tigerfibel to refresh his memory and most people would easily recall if a figure like that was out of line with their experiences.

[micheal kenny]

1 hour ago, R011 said:

  If he recalled the events of one day wrong, then so what? 

He did not 'recall' anything as it did not happen. He made it up. Its fiction. He invented an attack where a group of Tigers knocked out 28 IS-2 tanks.  There is no comparable incident in this time period (he was seriously wounded a few days later) that could be said to be a possible mis-dating of this action.

The claim for 28 IS-2 kills late in the day of June 22 1944 by Carius (and/or his group of Tigers)  is total fiction. 

 

 

[micheal kenny]

1 hour ago, R011 said:

 He obviously had the Tigerfibel to refresh his memory and most people would easily recall if a figure like that was out of line with their experiences.

You clearly 'want to believe'. Carius did not use the Tiger Fibel to refresh his memory he used it to burnish his memory. A memory that is obviously suspect as the totally bogus claim of  28 kills on July 22nd  clearly demonstrates. 

 

 

 

[micheal kenny]

 Newsome claims  his 'research' shows him that the Tiger had a 5,000 km overhaul schedule.

 

'' from the evidence I have gathered they got a reliable tank and not just because I keep saying its reliable ..I'll just give one datum to make that clear. So the evidence I've gathered this tank had an overhaul schedule of 5,000 km or 3,000 miles.''...

 

However Newsome has never sourced his claim. Despite being asked to do this on many internet forums he has never once revealed his source.  He goes on to claim:

 

''and in my research there is not a single Western Allied tank or Soviet tank which is reaching that'..........  The M4A2 overhauled around 2,000 miles and the Tiger is designed, from what I can tell,  to be overhauled at slightly more than 3,000 miles   The Sherman generally is  accepted in literature as  reliable  has 2,000 miles between overhauls and you've got the Tiger is getting 3,000 miles between overhauls.''

 

 

direct to the claim :

It is noticeable that all those trying to defend or validate this claim have not been able to produce a single reference for it. 

Edited May 4, 2023 by micheal kenny

[DB]

Is it time to break out the "History Today" video clip again? I think so.

Grow up, have a civil discussion without implying that others with whom you disagree, or who are obviously speculating as part of a discussion are idiots or worse, wehraboos.

 

[micheal kenny]

DP

Edited May 4, 2023 by micheal kenny
fat fingers

[BansheeOne]

Saumur is reportedly restoring their Tiger I to running condition with the original engine for this year's Bastille Day parade, so they could just run it until they find out about engine life.

[Mikel2]

2 hours ago, BansheeOne said:

Saumur is reportedly restoring their Tiger I to running condition with the original engine for this year's Bastille Day parade, so they could just run it until they find out about engine life.

 

July is their deadline?  As much drama as the typical American car restoration show of a decade ago!

 

Edited May 6, 2023 by Mikel2

[BansheeOne]

I wondered myself, and upon checking find that I misread the Bastille Day part - the parade in question is for the 80th anniversary of the liberation of France, so actually next year.

[Mikel2]

I have to imagine that the French must be planning something special for such an anniversary.

[Erik2]

AFAIK Newsome have more data on Tiger lifespans besides the Tigerfibel, in his book he goes into the British testing and recording the lifespan of each part of the Tiger's drivetrain, which I suppose suggested to him that the gearbox/transmission was also designed to be overhauled at 5000 km.

@micheal kenny You speak as if you're 100% completely certain that you're correct and everyone else is wrong, when what you're really doing is the same as the rest of us, making guesses based off a limited amount of data. I feel it probably says something about the way you think.