Does anyone own "The Tiger Tank and Allied Intelligence: Capabilities and Performance" by Bruce Newsome?

[RichTO90]

21 hours ago, Interlinked said:

That is hilarious

Well, Chris reached a point where he was actually researching the longest book ever supposedly written by an individual... It's kind of the same thing that happened with American Thunder. I wrote it almost 15 years ago now for a class in my masters program and at the time my professor said it should be a doctoral  dissertation. I was 53 at the time and had no intention spending more time in school so let it sit and spent idle hours working on it until covid lockdown happened. I actually sat down for about nine months and went through every document I had collected and went from about 200 pages to over 700.

 

[Erik2]

It would be nice if someone would like to write a review of Bruce Newsome's 4 books about the Tiger, because some people on the Axishistory forum says that Newsome is a phony historian and cherry-picks and flat-out lies about his evidence, to make the Tiger look as good as possible, and other nation's tanks as bad as possible, to pamper to the German tank-fanboy "wehraboo" crowd.

One example given was when Newsome said in his interview that Crusader had a mean distance between overhauls of just 250 miles, an example of how unbelievably unreliable some UK tanks were according to Newsome. He says he reads this from a report he's quoted in one of his Tiger books. Someone said that Newsome is either lying about this distance, or stupidly confusing distance between breakdowns with distance between overhauls.

I know too little to form an opinion myself, so it'd be great if someone could clarify this.

Edited April 18, 2023 by Erik2

[alejandro_]

I have looked again at the excerpt posted in the discussion, which comes from the book "The Tiger Tank and Allied Intelligence: Capabilities and Performance" by Bruce Newsome:

The oldest Tigers in 501st battalion had surpassed 3,000 km (1,864 miles) by May 1943 without major issues; the 502nd had deployed two months earlier, which suggest its oldest Tigers reached 3,000 km by March 1943. This is a remarkable distance, even for tanks today.

I asked the author of panzer-elmito about this statement, and it is misleading. What the report says is that:

"5 engines have reached a distance of 3000 km without suffering major failures"

These engines, HP210, were probably installed in a few tanks before reaching the distance.

The same report states that after marching 400 km in several operations, the Tigers which were not knocked out had to be towed. 

https://www.panzer-elmito.org/tanques/tiger_i/informes/tiger_i_03_05_1943_E.html

Regarding Tigerfibel, Newsome explains that "The Tigerfibel promised that the engine would run for 5,000 km if the oil bath air filters were cleaned every 500 km"

The actual statement in page 29 is:

"During operations with your Maybach  you can easily reach 5000 km, as long as you give it fresh air to breathe. Otherwise less than 500 km."

So yes, Tiger I could reach 5,000 km but loads of components would have to be replaced during overhauls. For example, Maybach-Olvar transmission was found to be more troublesome than Panther's. After 1943 most German tanks would be destroyed or abandoned before reaching this figure, and only a very small % would manage.

Edited April 21, 2023 by alejandro_

[Erik2]

5 hours ago, alejandro_ said:

I have looked again at the excerpt posted in the discussion, which comes from the book "The Tiger Tank and Allied Intelligence: Capabilities and Performance" by Bruce Newsome:

The oldest Tigers in 501st battalion had surpassed 3,000 km (1,864 miles) by May 1943 without major issues; the 502nd had deployed two months earlier, which suggest its oldest Tigers reached 3,000 km by March 1943. This is a remarkable distance, even for tanks today.

I asked the author of panzer-elmito about this statement, and it is misleading. What the report says is that:

"5 engines have reached a distance of 3000 km without suffering major failures"

These engines, HP210, were probably installed in a few tanks before reaching the distance.

The same report states that after marching 400 km in several operations, the Tigers which were not knocked out had to be towed. 

https://www.panzer-elmito.org/tanques/tiger_i/informes/tiger_i_03_05_1943_E.html

Regarding Tigerfibel, Newsome explains that "The Tigerfibel promised that the engine would run for 5,000 km if the oil bath air filters were cleaned every 500 km"

The actual statement in page 29 is:

"During operations with your Maybach  you can easily reach 5000 km, as long as you give it fresh air to breathe. Otherwise less than 500 km."

So yes, Tiger I could reach 5,000 km but loads of components would have to be replaced during overhauls. For example, Maybach-Olvar transmission was found to be more troublesome than Panther's. After 1943 most German tanks would be destroyed or abandoned before reaching this figure, and only a very small % would manage.

Thanks.

Edited April 21, 2023 by Erik2

[Junior FO]

...

 

Edited September 23, 2024 by Junior FO

[Erik2]

16 minutes ago, Junior FO said:

Just to specify, the report states that the Tiger can march for 400km, then operate for an undefined period, after which those still intact needed to be towed. Also the Tiger was now able to keep up with lighter tanks at marching speeds which had previously been deemed not possible.

Also noteworthy is that the HL210 is now seen as technically reliable, but the poorly trained drivers are a significant source of problems and damage. I've seen this mentioned in several times, in addition to mentions of motor problems from trying to stretch fuel with oil or having to use aircraft fuel.

 

A 400 km march+combat without needing a maintenance break between, isn't that really good for WW2 standards? Like Sherman-level good?

Edited April 21, 2023 by Erik2

[Junior FO]

...

Edited September 23, 2024 by Junior FO

[micheal kenny]

 

 

Note that the 'marches' (plural) of 400 km is in fact one march (single) from Tunis.

 

Striking of the latest operations is the fact that after marches of 400 km it has been possible to operate in combat with the 'Tigers'. Although it is true that after these operations the 'Tigers' that had not caused a total loss have not been able to leave the area of operations by their own force and have had to be towed, it can be confirmed that at this time the 'Tigers' are capable of to march alongside lighter main battle tanks at marching speeds not previously

thought possible.

 

 

 

From TIC I 

EMPLOYMENT OF THE 1./SCHWERE PANZER-ABTEILUNG 504
12 March 1943: The first 3 Tigers reach Tunis.
17 March 1943: Schwere Panzer-Abteilung 501 with 11 Tigers (without a battalion
commander) is attached to Major Seidensticker. The battalion receives the order to move
from Tunis in a 400-kilometer road march to Sfax-Maknassy to strengthen the defense of
the Schott Position.
Total tanks: 14.
19 March 1943: 12 Tigers reach the Maknassy Pass.
20 March 1943: Employment of 6 Tigers west of the Maknassy Pass toward the US 9th
Armored Division; 35 tanks knocked out. Breakthrough of the US to the sea is stopped.
22 March 1943: The next 4 Tigers are unloaded in Bizerta; a fifth one a day later.
Total tanks: 19.

24 March 1943: An enemy attack on Hill 322 north of Maknassy is repelled.
25 March 1943: Several attacks from the region north of Maknassy are pushed back.
End of March 1943: Passing Kairouan to the west, the battalion is relocated to the sector
of Division "Hermann Goring" around Medjes el Bab-Bizerta. 1 Tiger has to be blown
up.
Total tanks: 18.
1 April 1943: 6 Tigers operational. One platoon (Oberleutnant Hautmann) is
attached to the II./Panzer-Regiment 8. Two more Tigers arrive in Tunis.
Total tanks: 20.
3 April 1943: A tank company from Division "Hermann Goring" is attached.
5 April 1943: 6 Tigers are available to the 5. Panzer-Armee; 7 to the Deutsches MrikaKorps.
7 April 1943: Unsuccessful counterattack against superior forces 15 kilometers west of
La Skhirra. Mterwards, delaying action to the Enfidaville position.
16 April 1943: The last Tiger is unloaded in Bizerta.
Total tanks: 21.
19 April 1943: Attack of Oberleutnant Witt with 2 Tigers in Operation Fliederbliite
("Lilac Bloom") with III./Fallschirmjager-Regiment 5 on Djebel Djaffa (west of Goubellat)
without major success. Several tanks are knocked out.
The crew members of Tiger 131 panic and abandon the tank after two harmless hits
from a Churchill.
Total tanks: 20.
20 April 1943: Attack with mounted airborne soldiers of the 12./Fallschirmjager-Regiment
5 on the road to Medjez el Bab near the junction of Krouchet. An enemy counterattack
is repelled. Several tanks and 1 Tiger are knocked out. Mter dusk, withdrawal to the
former front lines.
Total tanks: 19.
21 April 1943: Defense 6 kilometers east of Medjez el Bab-Goubellat (Hill 107) with
Fallschirmjager-Regiment 5 and Division "Hermann Goring." Main offensive of the British
9th Armoured Division is pushed back. The Tigers destroy approximately 40 tanks. Tiger
712 (Oberleutnant Schroter) receives a hit from a Churchill (A Squadron/48th Royal
Tank Regiment), blocking the turret, and is left behind by the crew. The British move this
tank to La Manouba. Additionally, another Tiger and 3 Panzer Ills are knocked out.
Total tanks: 17.
25 April 1943: Support of an attack of Fallschirmjager-Regiment 5 on Hill 107, which
had been lost on 23 April 1943.
26 April 1943: An attack against the friendly forces to the north-the 10. Panzer-Division-
south of Medjerda is pushed back. 6 to 8 Tigers knock out more than 20 tanks.
Major Seidensticker is awarded the Knight's Cross.
28 April 1943: 9 Tigers are employed with Kampfgruppe Irkens at the "Cactus Farm"
southeast of Medjez el Bab with Fallschirmjager-Regiment 5. Several tanks are knocked
out.
29 April 1943: A new attack on the Cactus Farm is repelled; 4 tanks and 2 Tigers
destroyed.
Total tanks: 15.
End of April 1943: Fighting in the area of Ksartyr-Pont du Fahs; a total of 41 tanks are
knocked out.
1 May 1943: Only 4 Tigers operational.
3-5 May 1943: Defensive operations against several attacks in the Medjez el Bab
region. All tanks are concentrated in Kampfgruppe (Oberst) Irkens.

6 May 1943: British launch main offensive. Fighting near the salt lakes south of Tunis
in the days that follow. Counterattack of Kampfgruppe Irkens. 90 enemy tanks knocked
out. 1 Tiger (Oberleutnant Hautmann) has to be blown up in a wadi after running out of
fuel.
Total tanks: 14.
7 May 1943: Tank skirmish near the El Alia airfield.
10 May 1943: 9 Tigers operational.
12 May 1943: Surrender of the remnants of the two Tiger battalions on Bone Peninsula.
Most of the vehicles are destroyed by own crews.

 

 

Note the obligatory cricket-score claims for 40+ 20+41+ 90 (= 191) 'enemy tanks for the last fortnight of operation

 

 

 

 

[nitflegal]

There's an interesting thread here with at least one fairly familiar name: http://www.dupuyinstitute.org/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000044.html 

[nitflegal]

Here is the chart which serves as the source in Volume IV of the operational range of various Allied tanks

[alejandro_]

On 4/21/2023 at 8:25 PM, Erik2 said:

A 400 km march+combat without needing a maintenance break between, isn't that really good for WW2 standards? Like Sherman-level good?

I don't have any data at hand for Sherman, but T-34s managed 500 km march in 3 days in East Prussia. According to veteran the tanks coped very well. In any case, a 400 km march by a Tiger is impressive.

[Erik2]

On 4/25/2023 at 3:16 PM, alejandro_ said:

I don't have any data at hand for Sherman, but T-34s managed 500 km march in 3 days in East Prussia. According to veteran the tanks coped very well. In any case, a 400 km march by a Tiger is impressive.

So it seems probable that the Tiger managing 5000 km between overhauls in tests, twice that of what the most reliable tanks in WW2 achieved in combat, doesn't seem to mean it was the most reliable tank or had the best strategic mobility, and the assumption that Newsome seem to make, that it means it was, is wrong.

[nitflegal]

On 4/29/2023 at 5:00 AM, Erik2 said:

So it seems probable that the Tiger managing 5000 km between overhauls in tests, twice that of what the most reliable tanks in WW2 achieved in combat, doesn't seem to mean it was the most reliable tank or had the best strategic mobility, and the assumption that Newsome seem to make, that it means it was, is wrong.

I don't think that's the case that he's making; I think his case after reading the book is not that it was the most reliable tank in the world at the time but rather that's it's reliability was in line with other lighter tanks of the time.  That is actually a pretty high recommendation considering that it was much heavier, much better armed and armored, easier to operate and drive, much better ergonomically than most other tanks of it's time, and better in every respect than it's closest counterpart; the KV-1.  Being roughly as mobile and reliable as anything else on the battlefield while outmacthing them greatly is impressive.

I think if you read the book it comes across as much more of a counter-argument to the conventional wisdom about the Tiger 1 than a hagiography of the tank.

[micheal kenny]

19 hours ago, nitflegal said:

I don't think that's the case that he's making; I think his case after reading the book is not that it was the most reliable tank in the world at the time but rather that's it's reliability was in line with other lighter tanks of the time. 

Newsome claims the Tiger could manage 5,000 km  in combat is based solely on a passing incidental  mention in the Tiger Fibel. Newsome also references it to  Carius because  he believes it confirms the '5,000km'  when in fact all Carius is doing is quoting the very same mention in The Tiger Fibel. This '5,000 km fact' is the absolute cornerstone of his argument  but he cannot find a  single technical source to confirm the claim.  

Newsome's claims have been doing the rounds on Tiger related sites for some years now and though he has been directly challenged  several times he never once posted  anything to back his claim other than a standard 'buy the book' or 'subscribe to my channel'.  

 

[Erik2]

17 hours ago, micheal kenny said:

Newsome claims the Tiger could manage 5,000 km  in combat is based solely on a passing incidental  mention in the Tiger Fibel. Newsome also references it to  Carius because  he believes it confirms the '5,000km'  when in fact all Carius is doing is quoting the very same mention in The Tiger Fibel. This '5,000 km fact' is the absolute cornerstone of his argument  but he cannot find a  single technical source to confirm the claim.  

Newsome's claims have been doing the rounds on Tiger related sites for some years now and though he has been directly challenged  several times he never once posted  anything to back his claim other than a standard 'buy the book' or 'subscribe to my channel'.  

 

Carius said: "With a regularly cleaned filter, everyone could get 5000 km on a single motor". The Tigerfibels statement is (unless there's another mention of the engine's lifespan in it that I've missed) is: "You can drive 5,000 km in your Maybach if you give it the freedom to breathe". Saying that we can clearly say that he's quoting the Tigerfibel is a stretch.

I also don't know why it'd be impossible for the Tiger's engine to reach 5000 km, when there's a combat report from before the Tiger that talks about how the engines in the earlier tanks have surpassed 5000 km, and how this was known from previous experience as the lifespan and point where they will become unreliable if they continued to be used. We know that the earlier German tanks could do it at least.

However I don't understand why, according to Newsome, the lifespan of the engine = lifespan between overhauls. According to Don Juan it was common for British engines to have a 5000 km lifespan in combat (which was reached by taking the engines from old tanks and putting them in new ones) - if that's true, an  if the tanks that used these engines weren't reported as having a 5000 km overhaul distance by their own users despite this, I wonder if Newsome wrongly focusing only on the engine's lifespan and comparing it with some other kind of measurement of lifespan used by the Allies.

Edited May 2, 2023 by Erik2

[micheal kenny]

2 hours ago, Erik2 said:

Carius said: "With a regularly cleaned filter, everyone could get 5000 km on a single motor". The Tigerfibels statement is (unless there's another mention of the engine's lifespan in it that I've missed) is: "You can drive 5,000 km in your Maybach if you give it the freedom to breathe". Saying that we can clearly say that he's quoting the Tigerfibel is a stretch.

 

Look at page 28 of the Tiger Fibel  and you will see that Carius is without any doubt, using the Tiger Fibel for his numbers. 

 

Tigers In The Mud

 

The air cleaner numbers on page 29 are also used by Carius.

 

 

Edited May 2, 2023 by micheal kenny

[Erik2]

3 hours ago, micheal kenny said:

Look at page 28 of the Tiger Fibel  and you will see that Carius is without any doubt, using the Tiger Fibel for his numbers. 

 

Tigers In The Mud

 

The air cleaner numbers on page 29 are also used by Carius.

 

 

The numbers are clearly taken from it, so I do think that Newsome is pushing a point of view too hard when he says "Carius remembered". That doesn't mean that Carius didn't also remember the engines lasting 5000 km in combat though, since the engines in other German tanks did reach 5000 km, and the engines in the Panther were suffering from lack of cooling.

But again, I wonder if it's really correct that engine lifespan = distance between overhauls, which seems to be what Newsome assumes. If there were plenty of British tanks with 5000 km lifespan engines, and their users didn't report those tanks as having 5000 km overhauls, an overhaul distance is clearly not decided by just the engine's lifespan.

[micheal kenny]

1 hour ago, Erik2 said:

The numbers are clearly taken from it, so I do think that Newsome is pushing a point of view too hard when he says "Carius remembered". That doesn't mean that Carius didn't also remember the engines lasting 5000 km in combat though,

It means that Newsome MUST have noticed that the Carius reference was taken directly from The Tiger Fibel. Despite this he went ahead and  made it look like he had two references. I am one of those funny people who, when given a reference, actually checks if it says what it is claimed to say.  When I checked Carius it was glaringly obvious that it was a simple requote from the Tiger Fibel.

 

Newsome is being deliberately deceptive.

 

 

[R011]

I'd take Carius as a confirmation of the Tigerfibel.  If the figure was radically different from 5000 km, he'd have mentoned it.

[micheal kenny]

4 hours ago, R011 said:

I'd take Carius as a confirmation of the Tigerfibel.  If the figure was radically different from 5000 km, he'd have mentoned it.

In the chapter 'The Ambush' Carius claims 17 IS-2 and 5 T-34 for  the morning of July 22nd 1944. Carius then claims he went on to ambush and wipe out a further 28 IS-2 later in the day.  

At the back of his book he has the Unit  AAR  for that day. Document 6  is  'AFTER-ACTION REPORT ON THE EMPLOYMENT OF THE 502ND  HEAVY PANZER BATTALION IN THE 16TH ARMY SECTOR FROM JULY 4 TO AUGUST 17 1944' and the commander listed the days tally as

'July 22

Successes: 23 tanks knocked out (17 T43s, 6 Josef Stalins)
6 heavy antitank guns destroyed
A number of trucks destroyed'
 

There is no mention of the 28 IS-2 Carius claimed for the night of  July 22. It seems the Unit commander has no idea that Carius had such a stunning success. Also note that Carius claims 17 IS-2 for the morning engagement but the commander has only 6 IS-2 with the remainder being T-34s.

Carius, at best, has a faulty memory and to claim something 'must' be true or he would have said otherwise is absurd.

 

 

[R011]

35 minutes ago, micheal kenny said:

In the chapter 'The Ambush' Carius claims 17 IS-2 and 5 T-34 for  the morning of July 22nd 1944. Carius then claims he went on to ambush and wipe out a further 28 IS-2 later in the day.  

At the back of his book he has the Unit  AAR  for that day. Document 6  is  'AFTER-ACTION REPORT ON THE EMPLOYMENT OF THE 502ND  HEAVY PANZER BATTALION IN THE 16TH ARMY SECTOR FROM JULY 4 TO AUGUST 17 1944' and the commander listed the days tally as

'July 22

Successes: 23 tanks knocked out (17 T43s, 6 Josef Stalins)
6 heavy antitank guns destroyed
A number of trucks destroyed'
 

There is no mention of the 28 IS-2 Carius claimed for the night of  July 22. It seems the Unit commander has no idea that Carius had such a stunning success. Also note that Carius claims 17 IS-2 for the morning engagement but the commander has only 6 IS-2 with the remainder being T-34s.

Carius, at best, has a faulty memory and to claim something 'must' be true or he would have said otherwise is absurd.

 

 

Mis-remembered or exaggerated his kill count ona specific day?  Sure.  Forgot that the official figures he was being fed was complete bullshit?  Unlikely.

[micheal kenny]

9 minutes ago, R011 said:

Mis-remembered or exaggerated his kill count on a specific day?  Sure.  Forgot that the official figures he was being fed was complete bullshit?  Unlikely.

Mis-remembered? Carius made-up a claim he ambushed 28 IS-2 on the night of July 22. 

 

Decide for yourself if this account is an innocent  error :

 

We were in the greatest of suspense for about the next half hour. In
such situations, minutes became eternities. We finally recognized some
dust clouds to the east. If they weren’t from our comrades in the other
companies, then they had to be Russians. Using my scope, I was soon
able to identify the tanks that were slowly approaching.
Our hopes had panned out. Ivan didn’t know anything about the
bad luck of his advance guard because infantry was sitting on the tanks,
the cannons were in the travel position, and the Russians were moving as
if on a road march behind the front. We could also make out trucks
between the tanks. These were most likely transporting fuel and munitions.
Those guys were moving past us, directly in front of our eyes, as if on
parade. At most, they were a kilometer away. Ten to fifteen men were
standing or sitting on every tank. They had no idea that we were lying in
wait for them there.
Just as the first Russian tank wanted to disappear behind the protective
high ground, I gave the order to fire. What then took place would
make the heart of every tanker beat faster. I was so beside myself, that I
jumped out of the tank to better view the spectacle.
The panic was unimaginable. Not a single shot was fired from a Russian
tank. Naturally, we didn’t have any time to spend with the fleeing
Russian infantry.
After we had finished off all the vehicles, there wasn’t a Russian to be
seen. They had slunk away into the fields, if they hadn’t been surprised
on their tanks. The entire column of vehicles was burning. Some of the
trucks were overturned.
One truck drove into another. And not a single one could escape. By
the time the Russians knew where the shooting was coming from, everything
had already been knocked out—a really horribly beautiful sight!
Twenty-eight tanks were in front of us, burning and smoldering. With
each passing moment, a fuel tank exploded; the ammunition rattled and
ripped the turrets apart. We had done a great job. I was firmly convinced
that we had given Ivan something to think about. It would certainly suffice
to guarantee us a few peaceful nights.
We then withdrew our tanks back to the village, and I was happy
when I got all of them across the creek. This brackish ditch was welcome
protection for the coming night.

Perhaps its just an example of the Germans IS-2 phobia?

[micheal kenny]

1 hour ago, R011 said:

Forgot that the official figures he was being fed was complete bullshit?  Unlikely.

I presume you mean that Carius was given an official figure' of 5,000 km.

If so can you provide a link to a source that gives this official figure?

Note that the  Tiger Fibel claim is not an 'Official Figure' .

 

 

[bojan]

Memoirs are not even secondary sources and are notoriously unreliable. They can get you general "feel" about specific issues, but quoting any numbers from memoirs is a fool's errand.

[Erik2]

6 hours ago, micheal kenny said:

I presume you mean that Carius was given an official figure' of 5,000 km.

If so can you provide a link to a source that gives this official figure?

Note that the  Tiger Fibel claim is not an 'Official Figure' .

 

 

Why would the Tigerfibel be printed with a faulty figure, and coming from where exactly?

Like I said before, a combat report says that the engines in pre-Tiger German tanks had 5000 km lifespans, so 5000 km Tiger engines would only be in line with previous reliability.

Edited May 3, 2023 by Erik2