Stray bombs during WW2 Koblenz air raids

[Samsa]

Last week I've spent some time talking to my grandma about her childhood during WW2 (living in a german city close to Koblenz). She had a bunch of quite frankly rather horrible stories about the raids on Koblenz as well as other smaller raids on local targets which wreaked quite some destruction in her town and sent the population into caves and cellars for shelter (those who could, that is).

She also mentioned that during the bigger Koblenz raids, her street and a few other places were hit by individual bombs, including small numbers of incendiary bombs. Thats where my question comes in:

How could the occasional bomb (or three) end up in a town 10 Km from the actual target. I'm aware that level bombing, especially at night, is not exactly very precise. What confuses me, is that according to her stories, it doesn't seem to be the case that a stray bomber dropped its load in the wrong spot as that would mean several hits roughly in the same area. More so for incendiaries which as far as I know where dropped in bundles. Still, that seems to have happened multiple times.

The explenation at the time was, that bombers that had left over bombs dropped those somewhere on the way back (and indeed, that are photos of several craters in the forests around the area, some of which are still visible, so a good number of bombs ended up in the surrounding area). If find this explanation a bit strange though. Its not like the bombs in a load are aimed and dropped individually. Also I don't see how a Lancaster with a closed off bomb bay could do anything about bombs that didn't release.

I'm aware that these kind of eyewitness stories are not necessarily very reliable, but still. Is there a scenario in which parts of a bombload might be dropped in random spots kilometers from the actual target? I'm not very well versed in the details of allied strategic bombing in WW2, but I guess some here might be, so I'm curious for any anwers.

 

[R011]

Mostly navigation errors.  I also imagine that if a crew wasn;'t able to hit the actua target for any resaon, they'd just dump their bombs anywhere rather than try to tke them home.  not dumping bombs would use up fuel and be dangerous if they had to ditch or were interepted.

[DougRichards]

Is there a possibility that an aircraft, instead of flying straight and level at the time of bomb release, may be maneuvering, leading to the bombs being 'sprayed' more widely? 

[R011]

They'd hit a few hundred meters from the aiming point perhaps, but not ten kilometers from where relesed.  Note that ten klicks is about 90 seconds of  flying time and air crews weren't all that fussy where their bombs landed in Germany if they didn't land on target.  Not that the RAF were the only onnes like that.  My parents' town was only thirty kilometers from London and less than ten from a major aircraft factory and caught a few stray bombs on one or two occassions.

[Ssnake]

38 minutes ago, DougRichards said:

Is there a possibility that an aircraft, instead of flying straight and level at the time of bomb release, may be maneuvering, leading to the bombs being 'sprayed' more widely? 

I suppose it might explain how "individual" bombs might impact areas (where the next bomb is some few hundred meters off, far enough not to be considered as a part of a neatly spaced bomb trail. Add the one or other dud to space them out even further.

[DougRichards]

3 minutes ago, Ssnake said:

I suppose it might explain how "individual" bombs might impact areas (where the next bomb is some few hundred meters off, far enough not to be considered as a part of a neatly spaced bomb trail. Add the one or other dud to space them out even further.

I was thinking of an accidental / incidental 'toss bombing' situation, where the dropping aircraft may be in a banking turn when the bombs are released. 

[Ssnake]

Yes. The question was, how come that we have bombs well off the target (premature release, emergency drop), and why were they perceived as individual drops rather than closely spaced (as one would expect from a mere navigation error). For the perception of individual bombs we need big spacing, so it can't have happened in neat level flight. I suppose, if you find yourself targeted by a fighter, you'd dump your bombs right away to lose weight while you start maneuvering more or less wildly to throw off the figher's aim. The result on the ground would manifest as a wild scatter pattern which would be apparent only if you actually took the time to collect all reports of bomb drops in your village and nearby fields and forests, and I guess few who lived through it really had the time to do so.

[shep854]

Scattering bombs during evasive maneuvers would be more understandable at night, since the RAF bombers flew in loose streams rather than tight formations to lessen risk of collisions, and allow individual evasion from direct attack.  The tight daylight American formations did not allow for much individual evasion, unless a plane was damaged and fell out of formation.

[EchoFiveMike]

Bombs can hang on the rack.  S/F....Ken M

[DougRichards]

3 hours ago, shep854 said:

Scattering bombs during evasive maneuvers would be more understandable at night, since the RAF bombers flew in loose streams rather than tight formations to lessen risk of collisions, and allow individual evasion from direct attack.  The tight daylight American formations did not allow for much individual evasion, unless a plane was damaged and fell out of formation.

And if they considered that they were under attack they would corkscrew to make it harder for the fighter to formate on them, whilst gunners were told NOT to fire, as tracers would only make the bomber easier to locate and destroy. 

There were stories of bomber crews watching as the bombers behind them were each found and destroyed in flames and seeing the destruction approaching them, one flaming bomber at a time.  If there was ever a reason to start corkscrewing and letting bombs go, that would be a very good reason.

[R011]

It took about forty seconds for a bomb to hit the ground at 20,000 feet.   If it were travelling at 240 mph at the time, it would travel 4 kilometers.  A Lanc would not be toss bombing anything ten klicks away deliberately or accidentally.

[Stuart Galbraith]

There are a few thoughts. Firstly it could be a bomber exploding, some bombs going up with the aircraft, others not being detonated which then fall and detonate when hitting the ground. It sounds unlikely but just about possible I guess. Ive certainly read of aircraft completely disintegrating with the loss of all their crew, except for the pilot who gets blasted out the cockpit. One reason Pilots really like seat parachutes.

Secondly, duds. It may be that they only counted the bombs that detonated, but never noticed the bombs that impact the ground and for whatever reason did not go off. Ive read in some parts of the war the bombs had something like a 40 percent dud rate. During the V1 campaign, one of the bomb factories on the SE coast of Britain could not be used, and there was a bomb shortfall. I read they even went back to bombs that had been stockpiled in the aftermath of WW1, just to keep sorties going. Which must have been wonderfully confusing for German bomb disposal chaps...

Another though occurs. Bombs hung up. Although usually in that case, it is the odd bomb that hung up, not the one bomb that drops and the others didnt. Could happen with electrical failure perhaps?

 

[Ssnake]

ooo, I've seen that. You had to climb on them tho pry them loose with a Stetson hat.

[seahawk]

There a re plenty reasons:

1. a damaged bomber dropping the bomb early

2. German fake target markers working and crews dropping on those

3. Stuck bombs dropped on the exit from the target

4. a bomber going for a target of opportunity

5. bad light discipline in the area

6. some tertiary target in the area that the population never thought worth to be bombed

[Leo Niehorster]

"Save one for Hanau".

There was a story going 'round when I was stationed in Germany, that the citizens of Hanau had lynched a bomber crew that had parachuted down. Apparently, some of the bomber crews that returned from bombing Frankfurt and surrounding targets thereafter, dropped one bomb for Hanau in revenge. Take with two shots of Äppelwoi and belief in conspiracies.

[Stuart Galbraith]

51 minutes ago, Ssnake said:

ooo, I've seen that. You had to climb on them tho pry them loose with a Stetson hat.

Thats why they sometimes brought stray Americans along as second dickie.

There were all kinds of strange problems with electrics. I remember one story, the bombardier of a Lancaster was arming his bombs over the channel and there was a sudden whump as the bombs went through the bomb bay doors (they were spring loaded so snapped shut afterwards). Anyway they pressed on, assuming they had some bombs left, pressed the pickle and ... nothing. So they went home, didnt tell anyone and chalked up a raid.

Im not saying that happened very often, but it does illustrate that electrical systems, as the history of Lucas can attest, were perhaps not our strongest attribute as a nation...

[Stuart Galbraith]

33 minutes ago, Leo Niehorster said:

"Save one for Hanau".

There was a story going 'round when I was stationed in Germany, that the citizens of Hanau had lynched a bomber crew that had parachuted down. Apparently, some of the bomber crews that returned from bombing Frankfurt and surrounding targets thereafter, dropped one bomb for Hanau in revenge. Take with two shots of Äppelwoi and belief in conspiracies.

Ive certainly read that USAAF crews, if they couldnt get a primary could go and bomb ANY town they could find if it was on visual. There was one occasion, I think it was a town near Berlin, rather than bring all their bombs back, one bomb grew seen this town appear through a split in the cloud and hammered that instead.

On the Nuremberg raid in 1944, this is the RAF raid were we lost some 96 aircraft, Ive read the bombing was so scattered, primarily due to unpredicted winds, they were some bombs that fell as far as Regensberg IIRC. Even in 1944, where bombing techniques had advanced a long way, there was still one hell of a long way to go.

[Samsa]

Thanks for the replies so far, way more than I expected tbh 

As Ssnake noted, I'm less surprised about radom towns being hit at all. It's more about the the number of bombs, as I expected either a full bomb load or nothing at all. But you guys gave a couple of plausible explanations for that.

Knowing that on neighbouring house got it's rear wall blown off at night, I'm guessing that was a British bomb. Could Lancaster or Halifax crews do anything about bombs that failed to drop? The bomb bay is not accessible iirc.

2 hours ago, Leo Niehorster said:

"Save one for Hanau".

There was a story going 'round when I was stationed in Germany, that the citizens of Hanau had lynched a bomber crew that had parachuted down. Apparently, some of the bomber crews that returned from bombing Frankfurt and surrounding targets thereafter, dropped one bomb for Hanau in revenge. Take with two shots of Äppelwoi and belief in conspiracies.

Is it possible to drop bombs individually with the types used for level bombing? Never really thought about it but I kind of expected it's all or nothing.

Also a shot of Äppelwoi won't get you far, you need a nice big Geripptes or three for that

[Stuart Galbraith]

I seem to recall in the Lancaster there is just a window so you can see whether your bombs have hung up. Probably the Halifax too. I dont believe there was anything you could do, other than just land really very carefully. Or Bail out and flip the pilot the bird, which is another option for inveterate cowards like myself.

Another thought occured to me. In some cases these German Flak shells could fail to detonate. Checking on the weight of a German 128mm flak shell, Im guessing they dont have a lot of HE filling, weighing in at only 57lb. But of course they could fragment, which could perhaps cause a certain amount of shrapnel damage if they detonated on impact, and failing that, 57lbs falling from 48 thousand feet is going ot have a certain amount of terminal velocity. And who wants to admit glorious war winning Reich tech doesnt always work?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12.8_cm_FlaK_40

[shep854]

It was not unheard of for moisture to freeze bomb clamps closed.  Since the bomb bay in US bombers was open to passage, crewmembers were known to kick and even jump on stuck bombs--over the abyss of an open bomb bay, that had to be exciting.

At first, each bomber in a US formation aimed its own bombs individually.  That quickly changed to simply dropping when the lead aircraft (which did try to aim) released their bombs; bombardiers were sometimes called 'toggleers'.

If the primary or alternate targets couldn't be bombed, I believe the US recommendation was to dump them over the North Sea.  I'm not sure what the policy was about bringing them back to base.

----

Lastly, bomb shortages were not limited to WWII; US had to use WWII-era bombs over Vietnam.  There were even missions where Navy jets launched with a couple of 250lb bombs to attack N.Vietnam!

[Sardaukar]

Quite a few SBD Dauntlesses in Pacific accidentally dropped their bombs because of electric mishaps in release system. Obviously that happening when flying over ocean is not as dangerous as e.g. flying over your own base etc....

[RETAC21]

There's another explanation that is likely when losses are high and there's no higher up to determine where the bombs end up, that is flying the distance of the target more or less and dump the bombs over Germany without any care for where they land and add another mission to the tour. 

[Sardaukar]

5 minutes ago, RETAC21 said:

There's another explanation that is likely when losses are high and there's no higher up to determine where the bombs end up, that is flying the distance of the target more or less and dump the bombs over Germany without any care for where they land and add another mission to the tour. 

As said before, you basically cannot return with bombs in bomb bay. It is inherent risk. So if you are lost, you just dumb them wherever and return to base. Landing with ordnance was not recommended. 

[RETAC21]

1 minute ago, Sardaukar said:

As said before, you basically cannot return with bombs in bomb bay. It is inherent risk. So if you are lost, you just dumb them wherever and return to base. Landing with ordnance was not recommended. 

well, I don't mean "lost", but rather "risk adverse". For example, there's this mission flown by Argentine A-4s in the Falklands war where the flight leader decided that the weather was bad and they couldn't make it to the target, so he ordered the flight to dump the bombs and flew back. Problem is, other flights made it to the islands and attacked with no weather problems, so naturally the flight leader was questioned by the other flight members, and he being one of the senior pilots in the squadron (ie married with children) found reasons to not fly the mission in conditions that were not the best.

[Sardaukar]

2 minutes ago, RETAC21 said:

well, I don't mean "lost", but rather "risk adverse". For example, there's this mission flown by Argentine A-4s in the Falklands war where the flight leader decided that the weather was bad and they couldn't make it to the target, so he ordered the flight to dump the bombs and flew back. Problem is, other flights made it to the islands and attacked with no weather problems, so naturally the flight leader was questioned by the other flight members, and he being one of the senior pilots in the squadron (ie married with children) found reasons to not fly the mission in conditions that were not the best.

Yea, I know what you mean.

That was also rampant in WW II. Lot of pilots were reprimanded/court-martialed for "cowardice". Often with scant evidence and with good reasons to turn back.

In RAF it was called "lack of character" in personnel file.