Commienazi symbology, Rummel, and genocide (from: Kiev Is Burning)

[Stuart Galbraith]

15 minutes ago, ink said:

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree that Russia is in the wrong and that it's more dangerous. However, I still think that since Western support already comes with strings, one of those should be stamping out the Nazi bullsh!t.

I'm genuinely surprised how unbothered people are by it.

It's not we aren't bothered by it. But it's rather like being vexed by French Communist Resistence, when you have just been made aware of Belsen. 

 

[sunday]

4 hours ago, Sardaukar said:

(...)

Your comedy value just gets better and better, lil panda.

Have you even ever read a book about military operations...or even professional online article? Not meaning those fantasy things, but you seem to have very strange view of military operations.

(...)

 

1 hour ago, Huba said:

The only appropriate answer to this is some orcs meeting fiery death - this will happen surely by the means of additional weapons shipments to Ukraine. Shame it won't be the tribe elders that will bear the responsibility.

 

32 minutes ago, Sardaukar said:

Did I just hear whiny Indian accent that tried to say something in English?

 

[ink]

4 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

It's not we aren't bothered by it. But it's rather like being vexed by French Communist Resistence, when you have just been made aware of Belsen. 

 

It is nothing like that at all. Not even a little. It's more like your tax dollars (pounds) paying to arm and train while units of men who glorify a murderous past and act out am murderous present.

Why can't you imagine Ukraine being defended without that? It isn't that difficult.

I feel sorry for ordinary Ukrainian army units who have to fight and die alongside these morons and have the thunder of their victories tainted by Nazi salutes and swastikas.

And for Polish volunteers who presumably have to spend much of their time patiently explaining to their new brothers in arms that actually Bandera slaughtered a bunch of ordinary innocent Poles just because of their national identity.

Yet this could all be avoided or halted overnight if the Ukrainian government just stamped it out. Why wouldn't they just do that? It would be so easy.

[sunday]

1 minute ago, ink said:

I feel sorry for ordinary Ukrainian army units who have to fight and die alongside these morons

Not always alongside. Often with them at the back to improve morale, and prevent routing, in the best tradition of the NKVD barrier troops.

[Stefan Kotsch]

... 

Edited November 15, 2022 by Stefan Kotsch

[Strannik]

38 minutes ago, ink said:

It is nothing like that at all. Not even a little. It's more like your tax dollars (pounds) paying to arm and train while units of men who glorify a murderous past and act out am murderous present.

Why can't you imagine Ukraine being defended without that? It isn't that difficult.

I feel sorry for ordinary Ukrainian army units who have to fight and die alongside these morons and have the thunder of their victories tainted by Nazi salutes and swastikas.

And for Polish volunteers who presumably have to spend much of their time patiently explaining to their new brothers in arms that actually Bandera slaughtered a bunch of ordinary innocent Poles just because of their national identity.

Yet this could all be avoided or halted overnight if the Ukrainian government just stamped it out. Why wouldn't they just do that? It would be so easy.

Because the grass roots of Ukrainian nationalist activist  masses are nazis in one way or another.  That explains (+ possibly western help) Z's forpol U-turn in 2019 - he just couldn't do "peace".

Unless of course it was all a big show to begin, but...

 

Of course it's easier to pretend it's a fluke and lament  " Oh, why don't they ..." 

Right?

Edited November 16, 2022 by Strannik

[ink]

45 minutes ago, Stefan Kotsch said:

Whatever it was.  This would not have happened without Russian shelling of Ukraine.

This ⬆️

[sunday]

1 minute ago, ink said:

This ⬆️

Or not without the fall of the Berlin Wall, or with a German victory in WWII, or...

[ink]

3 minutes ago, sunday said:

Or not without the fall of the Berlin Wall, or with a German victory in WWII, or...

Ok, sure, whatever. But people in the Russian government and military high command took the decision to launch an illegal invasion of a sovereign country and, when it comes down to it, bear the moral responsibility for all of the deaths, injuries, hatred and suffering that act causes. Yes, same for America in Iraq or wherever, but however you look at it, they are still culpable.

[crazyinsane105]

1 hour ago, ink said:

It is nothing like that at all. Not even a little. It's more like your tax dollars (pounds) paying to arm and train while units of men who glorify a murderous past and act out am murderous present.

Why can't you imagine Ukraine being defended without that? It isn't that difficult.

I feel sorry for ordinary Ukrainian army units who have to fight and die alongside these morons and have the thunder of their victories tainted by Nazi salutes and swastikas.

And for Polish volunteers who presumably have to spend much of their time patiently explaining to their new brothers in arms that actually Bandera slaughtered a bunch of ordinary innocent Poles just because of their national identity.

Yet this could all be avoided or halted overnight if the Ukrainian government just stamped it out. Why wouldn't they just do that? It would be so easy.

To be fair, the US turned a near blind eye to the Iranian backed militias when the Iraqi government used them to fight ISIS. And I’m not sure the Iraqi government would have been able to stamp them out before accepting US aid if that was a requirement.

The same applies to Ukraine. While I agree that these groups should have never been given any power or training facilities before Feb. 24, asking the Ukrainian government to stamp them out AND fight the Russians simultaneously may be too much of an ask. Especially since these guys are fighting against the Russians, and there is a need for any able bodied man in Ukraine to fight. 

[Der Zeitgeist]

😅

[Stuart Galbraith]

8 hours ago, ink said:

It is nothing like that at all. Not even a little. It's more like your tax dollars (pounds) paying to arm and train while units of men who glorify a murderous past and act out am murderous present.

Why can't you imagine Ukraine being defended without that? It isn't that difficult.

I feel sorry for ordinary Ukrainian army units who have to fight and die alongside these morons and have the thunder of their victories tainted by Nazi salutes and swastikas.

And for Polish volunteers who presumably have to spend much of their time patiently explaining to their new brothers in arms that actually Bandera slaughtered a bunch of ordinary innocent Poles just because of their national identity.

Yet this could all be avoided or halted overnight if the Ukrainian government just stamped it out. Why wouldn't they just do that? It would be so easy.

Oh it is like that, rather a lot.

I dont care if they visually glorify a murderous past, as far as Im concerned thats absolutely no different from Russians, who feel its perfectly ok to drive around flying Soviet flags, and flatten Ukrainian villages with artillery batteries like Zhukov is on the march again, and feel perfectly ok with their security service acting like Cheka, complete with torture chambers.

Ukrainians may well wear Badges that channel the Nazi's, and I loathe that, just as I loath walts who goosestep around at military shows pretending they are in the Waffen SS. But Its a long way from wearing the trappings of Nazism, to actually being and acting like an actual Nazi. And ive seen absolutely no evidence provided that Azov conducted the kind of casual atrocities that Russia has in places like Bucha. Dont believe me? Go find a Jew in Ukraine and find how many synagoges got burned to reenact Krystallnacht. You are all  busy channelling the 'Ukrainians are Nazi's!' riff the Russians handed to you, you arent stopping to think what it is an Nazi does. On present evidence Im seeing far more similarity in what the Russians do than I do the Ukrainians.

Why dont they stamp it out? Probably I suspect because they figure at the end of this war there wont be many of them left anyway. Nobody is choosy when they need warm bodies to soak up bullets, something you can note by the absolute pond life that being vacuumed up by Wagner. So why the outrage at Azov, but nobody seems to give a damn about Wagner soaking up murderers and rapists like they want to reform the Dirlewanger Brigade? Reality is more important than the symbolism.

Im disturbed by the inability of people in the 21st Century to get beyond symbolism and shock value. You guys would really have your minds seriously blown by the Punk generation, you really would.

Edited November 16, 2022 by Stuart Galbraith

[ink]

1 hour ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Oh it is like that, rather a lot.

Nope.

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I dont care if they visually glorify a murderous past [...]

That does display rather a lack of awareness of how symbolism goes on to affect behaviour.

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[...] as far as Im concerned thats absolutely no different from Russians, who feel its perfectly ok to drive around flying Soviet flags, and flatten Ukrainian villages with artillery batteries like Zhukov is on the march again, and feel perfectly ok with their security service acting like Cheka, complete with torture chambers.

Yeah but - and here's the thing - you're not paying to equip, train, feed and otherwise support the Russians (and neither am I). But I am - regrettably - contributing to these f*ckwits running around imagining themselves to be the Aryan warriors of the fourth reich.

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Ukrainians may well wear Badges that channel the Nazi's, and I loathe that, just as I loath walts who goosestep around at military shows pretending they are in the Waffen SS. But Its a long way from wearing the trappings of Nazism, to actually being and acting like an actual Nazi. And ive seen absolutely no evidence provided that Azov conducted the kind of casual atrocities that Russia has in places like Bucha.

And, because the Ukrainians have (with the support of their Western partners) locked down how the war is reported, you never will see all that much evidence of that. However, all the indications are there: (initially) preventing non-white Ukrainains from leaving the country; denying aid to Russian speakers; tying Roma people to lamp posts and humiliating them; "dealing with collaborators"; torturing prisoners of war; etc, etc.

Now, you support Ukraine and that's fine, but what I don't understand is why that has to go along with turning a blind eye to obvious problems and issues.

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Why dont they stamp it out? Probably I suspect because they figure at the end of this war there wont be many of them left anyway. Nobody is choosy when they need warm bodies to soak up bullets, something you can note by the absolute pond life that being vacuumed up by Wagner.

Well, look, they could just issue an order that visible displays of Nazism and Banderism won't be tolerated. That way, the warm bodies still go to the front but the image of the Ukrainian armed forces remains untarnished. Why wouldn't they just do that?

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Im disturbed by the inability of people in the 21st Century to get beyond symbolism and shock value. You guys would really have your minds seriously blown by the Punk generation, you really would.

You're disturbed by the inability of people in the 21st century to get beyond symbolism and shock value but you aren't disturbed by people in the 21st century covered in swastika tattoos, doing Nazi salutes and running around with guns paid for by your own government. Right. Good to know.

[Roman Alymov]

2 minutes ago, ink said:

Well, look, they could just issue an order that visible displays of Nazism and Banderism won't be tolerated. That way, the warm bodies still go to the front but the image of the Ukrainian armed forces remains untarnished. Why wouldn't they just do that?

They can't since all this Nazi collaborators and "Banderists" are officially considered  founding fathers of their state. Without them, they are just Soviet Republic of Ukraine without Socialism but with Oligarchs, territory loosely composed by Lenin and Stalin from parts of Russian Empire and Austro-Hungarian Empire.

[Stuart Galbraith]

15 minutes ago, ink said:

Nope.

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Well that put me straight.

 

That does display rather a lack of awareness of how symbolism goes on to affect behaviour.

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No, symbolism does not affect behaviour. Behaviour affects symbolism. People didnt turn into Nazis just because they wore Hugo Boss Uniforms. They were Nazi's before that. The Symbolism came later.

Yeah but - and here's the thing - you're not paying to equip, train, feed and otherwise support the Russians (and neither am I). But I am - regrettably - contributing to these f*ckwits running around imagining themselves to be the Aryan warriors of the fourth reich.

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Well, im not sure you are. They were running around long before the West was supporting Ukraine, even had their own armaments programme running at one point (none too successfully). So they are no receiving Western weapons? Well as long as they kill Russian soldiers and not jews or Ukrainians with them, im not seeing the problem.

And, because the Ukrainians have (with the support of their Western partners) locked down how the war is reported, you never will see all that much evidence of that. However, all the indications are there: (initially) preventing non-white Ukrainains from leaving the country; denying aid to Russian speakers; tying Roma people to lamp posts and humiliating them; "dealing with collaborators"; torturing prisoners of war; etc, etc.

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All the indications? Ok, so lets see some evidence of some of that. ive not seen any. Indeed, if there was solid evidence of it, im pretty sure the Russians would be making a song and dance routine of it. You cant make an assertion 'well we hearing about it because they have the media locked down' and make a serious case they are committing atrocities based upon no evidence. Ill happily have my mind changed here, but nobody has demonstrated anything of the kind.

Now, you support Ukraine and that's fine, but what I don't understand is why that has to go along with turning a blind eye to obvious problems and issues.

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I less support Ukraine, than support a Democracy against a fascist aggressor that wants to annex it. Yes, Ukraine could be a lot better. They could also be a lot worse a prospect. Personally I think now they have seen the advantages of what the West delivers, there is going to be a powerful incentive to be better. If they lose, clearly they will fall upon the rocks of people like the Asov. One more reason to want to see them win.

Well, look, they could just issue an order that visible displays of Nazism and Banderism won't be tolerated. That way, the warm bodies still go to the front but the image of the Ukrainian armed forces remains untarnished. Why wouldn't they just do that?

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They could issue an order. Its worth reflecting in the Vietnam war, there were plenty of orders put out not to paint this or that on flak jackets, with all kinds of dire retribution warned. I of one  guy who did the military training for Saving Private Ryan and Band of Brothers spent 12 months in vietnam with a CND symbol and flowers in his helmet. Nobody did anything, presumably because fighting the war was more important than policing uniforms.

You're disturbed by the inability of people in the 21st century to get beyond symbolism and shock value but you aren't disturbed by people in the 21st century covered in swastika tattoos, doing Nazi salutes and running around with guns paid for by your own government. Right. Good to know.

Ive seen Hells Angels in America (even in the 1950's) riding around in German Stahlhelms. Does it make them Nazi's? No. If they worse Nazi Uniforms and commited atrocities like Nazi's, id see the problem. If they are a bunch of walts who enjoy defending their country dressed as people they wrongly identify as historical hero's, well I dont like that, and I dont approve. But ultimately, SFW what I think? If they can shoot straight and dont murder out of hand like 3rd SS Totemkof Division, or burn entire villages like 2nd SS Das Reich used to do,  I really cant work up a head of steam about it. Ultimately what they do is more important than what they look like.

You disagree, I respect that. I daresay when this war ends we will be able to judge them fairly based on more evidence, rather than just hearsay.

Edited November 16, 2022 by Stuart Galbraith

[ink]

1 minute ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Ive seen Hells Angels in America (even in the 1950's) riding around in German Stahlhelms. Does it make them Nazi's? No. If they worse Nazi Uniforms and commited atrocities like Nazi's, id see the problem. If they are a bunch of walts who enjoy defending their country dressed as people they wrongly identify as historical hero's, well I dont like that, and I dont approve. But ultimately, SFW what I think? If they can shoot straight and dont murder out of hand like 3rd SS Totemkof Division, or burn entire villages like 2nd SS Das Reich used to do,  I really cant work up a head of steam about it. Ultimately what they do is more important than what they look like.

You disagree, I respect that. I daresay when this war ends we will be able to judge them fairly based on more evidence, rather than just hearsay.

Ok, I think we're not really understanding each other. I do have a problem with the symbols these guys use and I can also see why you think it's not that big of a deal. What I don't quite understand is why it's so openly tolerated.

All that would have to happen for it to stop is for Duda or Biden or someone to have a quiet ear in Zelensky's ear and say, "Hey, can you just get those guys to be a bit more discreet please? It's harming your image and, by association, ours too." Zelensky could then pass that on to his military leadership and those guys could take their velcro patches off their uniforms and helmets. Job done. No harm or cost incurred.

But also, by doing that, they would be establishing what will and will not be tolerated in a new, democratic Ukrainian society. It would also help smooth things with volunteers from countries (like Poland) who, I assume, find those things somewhat problematic. And, finally, it would make the Ukrainain army look more like the heroes they are, without the Nazi salutes and SS badges.

[Roman Alymov]

1 minute ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Ive seen Hells Angels in America (even in the 1950's) riding around in German Stahlhelms. Does it make them Nazi's? No. If they worse Nazi Uniforms and commited atrocities like Nazi's, id see the problem. If they are a bunch of walts who enjoy defending their country dressed as people they wrongly identify as historical hero's, well I dont like that, and I dont approve. But ultimately, SFW what I think? If they can shoot straight and dont murder out of hand like 3rd SS Totemkof Division, or burn entire villages like 2nd SS Das Reich used to do,  I really cant work up a head of steam about it. Ultimately what they do is more important than what they look like.

You disagree, I respect that. I daresay when this war ends we will be able to judge them fairly based on more evidence, rather than just hearsay.

Let's mirror the situation: imagine Russian troops operating with Nazi symbols on them. How do you think, what your Western press say about that? "Nothing to see here"?

      By the way yesterday another pro-Ukrainian diversion group was captured, their task was Kursk NPP. Was it noticed by Western press?

 

[Roman Alymov]

5 minutes ago, ink said:

It would also help smooth things with volunteers from countries (like Poland) who, I assume, find those things somewhat problematic. And, finally, it would make the Ukrainain army look more like the heroes they are, without the Nazi salutes and SS badges.

Well, part of the problem is "volunteers from countries" are often people with the same background  -and even if not, they do not see problems with this sumbols as long as their holders are against Russians. Even liberal Western media is not shy to demonstrate them

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

7 minutes ago, Roman Alymov said:

Let's mirror the situation: imagine Russian troops operating with Nazi symbols on them. How do you think, what your Western press say about that? "Nothing to see here"?

      By the way yesterday another pro-Ukrainian diversion group was captured, their task was Kursk NPP. Was it noticed by Western press?

 

Yes, but your guys arent operating in Nazi symbols, they were wearing symbols and flags that respresent the armed forces of the Soviet union, who brutally repressed Ukraine and Eastern Europe postwar. How is that any better? If you are from latvia Lithuania or Estonia, invaded and brutally repressed for 50 years, how are you supposed to read that?

Personally Im not making a big deal out the fact your guys wear such symbols,because its irrelevant. Im more interested in what they do now, which to be frank, stinks.

 

[seahawk]

The Soviet Flag is a symbol of liberation from Nazism.

[Huba]

Just now, seahawk said:

The Soviet Flag is a symbol of liberation from Nazism.

In Poland we have a saying: "curing plague with cholera". It fits perfectly.

[ink]

5 minutes ago, Huba said:

In Poland we have a saying: "curing plague with cholera". It fits perfectly.

I think this is actually very fitting. Cholera is really awful but you can survive it. The plague straight up kills you.

[Stuart Galbraith]

12 minutes ago, seahawk said:

The Soviet Flag is a symbol of liberation from Nazism.

There is a very good book I can recommend you if you are interested, written by one of the Forest Brothers in Lithuania in the late 40's, early 50's. He described a Forest Brother who was captured by the Soviet MVD. They strung him up by his ankles over an ants nest, with predictable results. That kind of thing wasnt an isolated occurance.

If the Soviets had liberated Eastern Europe and had gone home, Id have an entirely enthusiastic perspective of them. Unfortunately, they didnt.  And their methods to keep a lid on Eastern Europe to me look near identical to some of the more brutal methods the Nazis used doing the same thing in the USSR.

Like I say, its not in the symbols or the flags. Its what they do under them.

[Huba]

1 minute ago, ink said:

I think this is actually very fitting. Cholera is really awful but you can survive it. The plague straight up kills you.

That is correct. But being not as bad as a plague is hardly a redeeming quality for anything, isn't it?

[Stuart Galbraith]

18 minutes ago, Huba said:

In Poland we have a saying: "curing plague with cholera". It fits perfectly.