War in Ukraine, technical and military aspects only

[crazyinsane105]

18 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Cohones eh? In Iraq was knocked out by a 73mm recoilless iirc.

Truth be told, the Iraqis didn't seem to be able to get results with whatever they had.

To be fair, much of the stuff they did have was complete crap. They had access to thousands of MANPADs, but many of them weren’t maintained and they expired by the time coalition rolled in. Same with the smaller number of ATGMs they had, many didn’t work. They pretty much had a vast arsenal of explosives and that’s it 

[TrustMe]

1 minute ago, crazyinsane105 said:

To be fair, much of the stuff they did have was complete crap. They had access to thousands of MANPADs, but many of them weren’t maintained and they expired by the time coalition rolled in. Same with the smaller number of ATGMs they had, many didn’t work. They pretty much had a vast arsenal of explosives and that’s it 

The Libyans, in 2011, had the world's largest supply of MANPADS outside of the various manufacturing states. It didn't help them out one bit mainly due to aircraft sorties happening at night.

[crazyinsane105]

Just now, TrustMe said:

The Libyans, in 2011, had the world's largest supply of MANPADS outside of the various manufacturing states. It didn't help them out one bit mainly due to aircraft sorties happening at night.

Lot of their manpads were also crap, they were thrown away in arms dumps and forgotten about for decades on end.

The very small number that did work, there was a concentrated effort by the CIA to purchase them so they wouldn’t fall into the hands of nonstate actors. Given that with the thousands in Libya’s arsenal and not a single recorded incident of a passenger plane being shot down due to a loose one…I’d say the CIA ops and Gadaffi’s general incompetence was good 

[TrustMe]

14 minutes ago, crazyinsane105 said:

...Given that with the thousands in Libya’s arsenal and not a single recorded incident of a passenger plane being shot down due to a loose one…I’d say the CIA ops and Gadaffi’s general incompetence was good ...

It didn't end up well for the Gaddaffi's supporters even with the MANPADS  

[JWB]

 

[Roman Alymov]

Decoy Leopard-2

https://t.me/divannyevoini/4055

[Soldier36]

Russia continues to modernize its missiles. The P-800 Oniks supersonic cruise missile, part of the Bastion coastal missile systems, has been modernized by Russia. The new version of the Onyx missile has received more technologically advanced homing heads that are capable of attacking enemy targets more effectively, striking with a minimal deflection angle. Work is also underway to ensure the invulnerability of Onyx missiles to electronic warfare. Reportedly, the new characteristics of the missiles have already been confirmed during their tests. P-800 Onyx missiles were originally intended to destroy enemy ships, but thanks to innovations they have become an effective means of attacking ground targets. The Onyx anti-ship missile was developed back in the 80s of the last century, but entered service only in 2002. One complex with four Bastion launchers is capable of defending a coastline over 600 km long. The missile's flight range is up to 600 kilometers; the modernized version of the Oniks-M missile is capable of hitting targets at a range of up to 800 kilometers. Onyx missiles are in service with surface ships and submarines of the Russian Navy, are used in Bastion coastal missile systems, and are also silo-based. 

 

 

[Soldier36]

The mechanic-driver of the Ukrainian self-propelled gun AHS Krab, made in Poland, showed his workplace. Previously, Poland transferred 54 AHS Krab self-propelled guns to the Ukrainian army. 155mm AHS Krab. The AHS Krab self-propelled gun was adopted by Poland in 2010 and is assembled from components from different countries. The self-propelled guns use German diesel engines, American Allison Transmission gearboxes, and a turret from the British AS-90M self-propelled gun manufactured under license in Poland. The self-propelled gun chassis is produced under license on the basis of the chassis of the South Korean K9 Thunder howitzer. The firing range of the AHS Krab self-propelled gun is up to 40 kilometers, the average speed is 30 km/h.

 

 

[crazyinsane105]

17 minutes ago, Soldier36 said:

Russia continues to modernize its missiles. The P-800 Oniks supersonic cruise missile, part of the Bastion coastal missile systems, has been modernized by Russia. The new version of the Onyx missile has received more technologically advanced homing heads that are capable of attacking enemy targets more effectively, striking with a minimal deflection angle. Work is also underway to ensure the invulnerability of Onyx missiles to electronic warfare. Reportedly, the new characteristics of the missiles have already been confirmed during their tests. P-800 Onyx missiles were originally intended to destroy enemy ships, but thanks to innovations they have become an effective means of attacking ground targets. The Onyx anti-ship missile was developed back in the 80s of the last century, but entered service only in 2002. One complex with four Bastion launchers is capable of defending a coastline over 600 km long. The missile's flight range is up to 600 kilometers; the modernized version of the Oniks-M missile is capable of hitting targets at a range of up to 800 kilometers. Onyx missiles are in service with surface ships and submarines of the Russian Navy, are used in Bastion coastal missile systems, and are also silo-based. 

 

 

To date, I believe the Ukrainians have been unable to intercept a single one. 

[Roman Alymov]

Instructor killed by AT-4 RPG on test range

https://t.me/PatrickLancaterNewsToday/4607

[crazyinsane105]

France will soon be able to deliver 78 Caesar howitzers to Ukraine and will boost its supply of shells to meet Kyiv's urgent needs for ammunition to fight Russia's full-scale invasion, the defense minister said Tuesday.
 

 

[Perun]

The Army’s towed howitzers, many of which have been sent to Ukraine, are becoming increasingly obsolete, U.S. Army Futures Command head Gen. James Rainey said Wednesday

“I personally believe that we have witnessed the end of the effectiveness of towed artillery,” Rainey said here at the AUSA Global Force conference. “The future is not bright for towed artillery.” 

The Army operates towed artillery, which is carted to firing positions by Army vehicles, and self-propelled artillery, which can maneuver to positions on its own. 

Future artillery systems must “continuously move,” with “no displacement” time, Rainey said, referring to the time it takes a gun-crew to move a cannon from its firing position. 

Light infantry units, such as Stryker brigades, could also benefit from mobile indirect fire systems, he said. Indirect fire systems are a military category that includes everything from artillery to rockets like the Guided Multiple Launch Rocket System. 

https://www.defenseone.com/threats/2024/03/future-not-bright-towed-artillery-army-general-says/395289/

[Josh]

Not an especially bold statement. UAVs are making even mid level opponents far too capable for systems that have too much set up or take dot time close to the front.

[Stuart Galbraith]

I dont think they need to be on the move all the time, and thats impractical anyway. How do you refuel or bomb up?

Having the ability to advance into a contested zone, setup, fire some shells, then retreat to the rear rapidly out of realistic range? Yes, I can see the necessity of that. But thats been coming since the 1980's one way or another. To me that commends a lot more artillery systems on hand, so you always have some capable of firing.

[ink]

Honestly, the not-so-recent trend of putting your tubed arty on a wheeled chassis is ideal. The only drawbacks I can see are cost (but the difference can't be that drastic) and the issue of putting all your eggs in one basket.

[ink]

Ukrainians claim use of new Russian weapon in Kharkov:

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russian-airstrikes-kill-least-one-ukrainian-city-kharkiv-mayor-says-2024-03-27/

The UMPB D-30 apparently. I assume this is the rocket-assisted GPS-guided munition we've seen recently.

[RETAC21]

7 hours ago, Perun said:

The Army’s towed howitzers, many of which have been sent to Ukraine, are becoming increasingly obsolete, U.S. Army Futures Command head Gen. James Rainey said Wednesday

“I personally believe that we have witnessed the end of the effectiveness of towed artillery,” Rainey said here at the AUSA Global Force conference. “The future is not bright for towed artillery.” 

The Army operates towed artillery, which is carted to firing positions by Army vehicles, and self-propelled artillery, which can maneuver to positions on its own. 

Future artillery systems must “continuously move,” with “no displacement” time, Rainey said, referring to the time it takes a gun-crew to move a cannon from its firing position. 

Light infantry units, such as Stryker brigades, could also benefit from mobile indirect fire systems, he said. Indirect fire systems are a military category that includes everything from artillery to rockets like the Guided Multiple Launch Rocket System. 

https://www.defenseone.com/threats/2024/03/future-not-bright-towed-artillery-army-general-says/395289/

Nonsense, towed artillery will always have a place as not all opponents will have access to higher level tech or this can be denied through EW. Another matter is whether the US Army needs to invest in other systems of higher mobility and networking capability to counter the "transparent" battlefield.

[ink]

4 minutes ago, RETAC21 said:

Nonsense, towed artillery will always have a place as not all opponents will have access to higher level tech or this can be denied through EW. Another matter is whether the US Army needs to invest in other systems of higher mobility and networking capability to counter the "transparent" battlefield.

Seems to me opponents who don't have access to drones are going to be in shorter and shorter supply in the not-so-distant future. But you may be right, there may well be a place for towed arty in future conflicts.

Even so, a higher proportion of mobile arty is advisable for most militaries, given the fact that nobody knows what tomorrow's war is going to look like.

[RETAC21]

1 minute ago, ink said:

Seems to me opponents who don't have access to drones are going to be in shorter and shorter supply in the not-so-distant future. But you may be right, there may well be a place for towed arty in future conflicts.

Even so, a higher proportion of mobile arty is advisable for most militaries, given the fact that nobody knows what tomorrow's war is going to look like.

The problem is not access to drones, it's the ability to use them in the battlefield, which can be denied through EW and counterfire. 

I agree that mobile artillery in general is the way to go, but it carries its own limitations. Wheeled artillery on trucks is quite vulnerable to loitering munitions and limited on where it can go, unless fighting in a desert. Tracked artillery has a significant overhead in terms of maintenance and a higher visibility vs towed artillery. In a situation like that of Ukraine, towed artillery is survivable using HARTS: https://nautilus.org/publications/books/dprkbb/military/dprk-briefing-book-harts-in-north-korea/

[Stuart Galbraith]

One can always try light guns moved by helicopter. Our Commando's always swore by those. Although if you get the timing wrong, you are going to be putting an expensive asset at risk.

It may well be, to make light guns work, you are probably going to be limited by the costs of moving them rapidly enough to make them viable. It may be that lighter, more disposable weapons like 120mm mortars, or even light rocket launchers of the nebelwerfer class, might prove more viable in future. you could stock one of the latter on a light remotely operated chassis, so if it gets plinked, not much loss.

[RETAC21]

22 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

One can always try light guns moved by helicopter. Our Commando's always swore by those. Although if you get the timing wrong, you are going to be putting an expensive asset at risk.

It may well be, to make light guns work, you are probably going to be limited by the costs of moving them rapidly enough to make them viable. It may be that lighter, more disposable weapons like 120mm mortars, or even light rocket launchers of the nebelwerfer class, might prove more viable in future. you could stock one of the latter on a light remotely operated chassis, so if it gets plinked, not much loss.

Very risky if enemy air is around and has long range missiles (both AAM and SSM). it would suck to lose the helicopter, the gun and both crews.

[TrustMe]

I'm waiting for the future time were artillery rounds have a anti-counter battery radar EW systems built into them   

[TrustMe]

1 hour ago, ink said:

Ukrainians claim use of new Russian weapon in Kharkov:

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russian-airstrikes-kill-least-one-ukrainian-city-kharkiv-mayor-says-2024-03-27/

The UMPB D-30 apparently. I assume this is the rocket-assisted GPS-guided munition we've seen recently.

 

An overview of Russian glide bombs possibly being the UMPB-D30 ...

 

https://www.iiss.org/online-analysis/military-balance/2024/03/russian-glide-bombs-add-pressure-on-ukraines-diminishing-air-defences/

[ink]

41 minutes ago, RETAC21 said:

The problem is not access to drones, it's the ability to use them in the battlefield, which can be denied through EW and counterfire. 

It's unclear at the moment how reliable EW is going to be in future and AI targeting algorithms (for drones that can't be jammed) might end up being shared to a country's direct enemy by third countries that don't wish it well.

With such threats looking increasingly likely in the near future, being able to shoot and scoot looks like a safer bet than trying to protect a fixed position.

[RETAC21]

6 minutes ago, ink said:

It's unclear at the moment how reliable EW is going to be in future and AI targeting algorithms (for drones that can't be jammed) might end up being shared to a country's direct enemy by third countries that don't wish it well.

With such threats looking increasingly likely in the near future, being able to shoot and scoot looks like a safer bet than trying to protect a fixed position.

The same issues apply to mobile artillery, as we can see in multiple videos.

Shoot and scoot only works if you are not under observation, else the guns are targeted when they stop. We are already seeing a move to artillery bunkers:

Note also that this happens because the front is static and it's no different than WW1. Then it was the plane that impacted artillery, today it's the drone. Then counterbattery fire was brought in minutes, today it's available in seconds, but the dynamic is the same. The way to break this is in a mobile battlefield, but neither side is able to mass the forces and supporting arms to break through... yet.