War in Ukraine, technical and military aspects only

[crazyinsane105]

https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_march_2024_global_security_army_industry/greece_to_deliver_s-300_and_tor-m1_surface-to-air_defense_missile_systems_to_ukraine.html
 

So not only the S-300s, but also 21 units of Tor-M1 and an undisclosed number of SA-8 OSA

Overall a significant capability boost as this compromises several hundred (probably up to a thousand) missiles. The Greek S-300 version is a bit more advanced than most of the other S-300s in Ukrainian possession from what I’ve read 

[Josh]

7 minutes ago, crazyinsane105 said:

https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_march_2024_global_security_army_industry/greece_to_deliver_s-300_and_tor-m1_surface-to-air_defense_missile_systems_to_ukraine.html
 

So not only the S-300s, but also 21 units of Tor-M1 and an undisclosed number of SA-8 OSA

Overall a significant capability boost as this compromises several hundred (probably up to a thousand) missiles. The Greek S-300 version is a bit more advanced than most of the other S-300s in Ukrainian possession from what I’ve read 

I had no idea Greece had any Russian equipment before the news of the donation. Not sure how I missed that; it seems like their entire AD system was Russian.

[Strannik]

27 minutes ago, crazyinsane105 said:

https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense_news_march_2024_global_security_army_industry/greece_to_deliver_s-300_and_tor-m1_surface-to-air_defense_missile_systems_to_ukraine.html
 

So not only the S-300s, but also 21 units of Tor-M1 and an undisclosed number of SA-8 OSA

Overall a significant capability boost as this compromises several hundred (probably up to a thousand) missiles. The Greek S-300 version is a bit more advanced than most of the other S-300s in Ukrainian possession from what I’ve read 

From the same article:

Greece might supply Ukraine with its S-300PMU-1 system if it could secure the more advanced American MIM-104 Patriot system in exchange.

[ink]

3 hours ago, Roman Alymov said:

The very idea that "Russian recon/strike complex would fair well against the U.S." is illusion - the best we can do without use of nukes is inflicting more or less heavy casualties on US forces (but most likely they will sent Eastern Europeans forward, so it will not be deterrant for them)

I wonder, is that graph adjusted for purchasing power parity?

[crazyinsane105]

1 hour ago, Strannik said:

From the same article:

Greece might supply Ukraine with its S-300PMU-1 system if it could secure the more advanced American MIM-104 Patriot system in exchange.

Correct, we will see it that actually transpires 

 

1 hour ago, Josh said:

I had no idea Greece had any Russian equipment before the news of the donation. Not sure how I missed that; it seems like their entire AD system was Russian.

Yup. And it is a very good equalizer against the Turkish Air Force as well

[Perun]

Ukraine’s security service attacks 3 Russian refineries in Samara Oblast overnight

The plants reportedly process about 25 million tons of oil per year, which is nearly 10% of Russia’s entire oil refining capacity.

...

https://euromaidanpress.com/2024/03/16/media-ukraines-security-service-attacks-3-russian-refineries-in-the-samara-oblast-overnight/

[Perun]

The DOK-ING MV-10 system was involved in the demining of the Mykolaiv region

https://mil.in.ua/en/news/the-dok-ing-mv-10-system-was-involved-in-the-demining-of-the-mykolaiv-region/

[KV7]

8 hours ago, ink said:

I wonder, is that graph adjusted for purchasing power parity?

No it seems to not be $ppp.  But the China figure is above the official values due to some crude adjustment for hidden expenditures etc.

Calculation of $PPP for the military sector is very difficult, as we no not have many standard commodities to use to make a price index. It's also not so advisable to use the GDP price index, as military capacity is so uneven. Consequently, $PPP estimates for military output are very varied.

This is a reasonable estimate. Note that for China and Russia, the technological sophistication of their defense sectors and their orientation towards providing affordable outputs for the local military means that the adjustment using the defense price index leads to a larger increase in estimated defense sector output than when whole of GDP prices indexes are used.



 

Edited March 17 by KV7

[Perun]

Just now, Perun said:

The DOK-ING MV-10 system was involved in the demining of the Mykolaiv region

https://mil.in.ua/en/news/the-dok-ing-mv-10-system-was-involved-in-the-demining-of-the-mykolaiv-region/

HEAVY-DUTY EOD ROBOTIC SYSTEM
HEAVY-DUTY AND COMBAT PROVEN
The MV-10 is the only robotic system in the world with double tool: front-positioned flail tool followed by a rear tiller. It is the only demining system in its class that has been verified in the real combat situation. Furthermore, due to its high engine power and supreme explosion resistance, the MV-10 presents the strongest system in its category.

The MV-10 is the only robotic system in the world with double tool: front-positioned flail tool followed by a rear tiller. It is the only demining system in its class that has been verified in the real combat situation. Furthermore, due to its high engine power and supreme explosion resistance, the MV-10 presents the strongest system in its category.

https://dok-ing.hr/defence-security/mv-10/

[Roman Alymov]

27 minutes ago, ink said:

I wonder, is that graph adjusted for purchasing power parity?

Probably not, but even with PPP adjustment the difference is still massive.

[Markus Becker]

2 hours ago, Josh said:

I had no idea Greece had any Russian equipment before the news of the donation. Not sure how I missed that; it seems like their entire AD system was Russian.

Good point: Why has Greece so much Soviet AA?

 

S-300 was ordered by Cyprus but delivered to Greece because 🦃 had a hissy fit over it.

Some Osa's were gifted by the unified Germany who inherited it from East Germany. The rest???

 

Tor? Seems way to modern to be gifted surplus. Payment for Russian debt or just a good deal back in the days when Russia wasn't a threat? 

[Roman Alymov]

Walk around Leopard-2 and Bradleys wrecks captured by pro-Russians near Avdeevka https://t.me/boris_rozhin/116780

[Roman Alymov]

4 minutes ago, Markus Becker said:

Tor? Seems way to modern to be gifted surplus. Payment for Russian debt or just a good deal back in the days when Russia wasn't a threat? 

Tors were bought from Russia in two contracts, 1998 and 2000. So the newest of them is 24 yo (but as far as i understand they were maintained by Russian side untill recently)

[Mistral]

40 minutes ago, Markus Becker said:

Good point: Why has Greece so much Soviet AA?

 

S-300 was ordered by Cyprus but delivered to Greece because 🦃 had a hissy fit over it.

Some Osa's were gifted by the unified Germany who inherited it from East Germany. The rest???

 

Tor? Seems way to modern to be gifted surplus. Payment for Russian debt or just a good deal back in the days when Russia wasn't a threat? 

Back in 2000s if you were serious about air defense what other options were there?

[rohala]

Greece's relations with Russia were good in the 2000s. Also, like Mistral said, what better options for a short range AA system were there?

 

[crazyinsane105]

33 minutes ago, rohala said:

Greece's relations with Russia were good in the 2000s. Also, like Mistral said, what better options for a short range AA system were there?

 

S-300 is long range though, not short range. Greece needed something to offset Turkish Air Force F-16s and this was the perfect solution.

Hell, don’t we remember the ruckus Israel raised when Iran was going to purchase the S-300. The missile deal was delayed for years since the S-300 was seen as a significant threat to IDF being able to freely operate over Iran. This was back in the mid to late 2000s.

[crazyinsane105]

Pretty detailed video on what Russian command structure may look like when it comes to Tornado launchers and forward observers 

[rohala]

37 minutes ago, crazyinsane105 said:

S-300 is long range though, not short range. Greece needed something to offset Turkish Air Force F-16s and this was the perfect solution.

S-300 was purchased by Cyprus, which is/was under NATO embargo. Greece bought the Patriot instead. The S-300 ended up in Greece because of Turkey's threats if it were delivered to Cyprus.

[TrustMe]

Didn't Greece give it's BMP2's to Ukraine as well?

Edited March 16 by TrustMe

[rohala]

Just now, TrustMe said:

Didn't Greece give it's BMP2's to Ukraine?

BMP-1, yes.

Poor Ukrainians...

[crazyinsane105]

Any chance of the T-80s heading to Ukraine as well? 

[bojan]

2 hours ago, crazyinsane105 said:

Pretty detailed video on what Russian command structure may look like when it comes to Tornado launchers and forward observers 

Not Tornado, Iskander. Submunition release at 0.9-1.4km height:

Proximity (dual laser and radio) fused submunitio), explodes at ~6-10m height:

Inside an Iskander:

IIRC there is a Tornado/Smerch version with same submunition, there were way too much of those on the video for a single missile payload.

[Josh]

2 hours ago, rohala said:

S-300 was purchased by Cyprus, which is/was under NATO embargo. Greece bought the Patriot instead. The S-300 ended up in Greece because of Turkey's threats if it were delivered to Cyprus.

Ok, but why Tor?

[ink]

4 hours ago, KV7 said:

No it seems to not be $ppp.  But the China figure is above the official values due to some crude adjustment for hidden expenditures etc.

Calculation of $PPP for the military sector is very difficult, as we no not have many standard commodities to use to make a price index. It's also not so advisable to use the GDP price index, as military capacity is so uneven.

Consequently, $PPP estimates are very varied.

This is a reasonable estimate. Note that for China and Russia, the technological sophistication of their defense sectors and their orientation towards providing affordable outputs for the local military means that the adjustment using the defense price index leads to a larger increase in estimated defense sector output then when whole of GDP prices indexes are used.



 

Thanks for that. Very interesting!

[alejandro_]

13 hours ago, Markus Becker said:

Some RUMINT:

 

I think T-62 and T-80 being repaired has to do with Russia having to replace many losses, and factories working on these types were available. Before war in Ukraine T-62s were refurbished for Syria.