The Grand Duchy of Muscovy emerging from Burning Kiev

[R E lee]

2 minutes ago, sunday said:

Then you should be able to put the full quotes.

Already done so. from your own source that contradicts you, you waste of bandwidth.

[Roman Alymov]

1 hour ago, sunday said:

There was no Spanish Nationalism. You may mistake Patriotism for Nationalism, but Nationalism and Catholicism are incompatible, and the defining trait of Spain, since the 8th century, was Catholicism.

As for me, that strongly resembles debates about "Russian nationalists" years ago. My usual answer was "What nation they are nationalists of? More correct word is "imperialists", butRus word "государственник" fits much better as it do not have negative connotation of "imperialism".

[R E lee]

22 minutes ago, sunday said:

Then you should be able to put the full quotes.

It could also be somewhat likely that one quote from pg. 58 and other from pg. 623 may not share the same context, and were the matter so clear, then it would have been easy to find only one quote supporting your position.

For the record, you continue to change the content of past already replied to, and moved on from. Kindly learn some manners.

[sunday]

In the Spanish edition of the book, there are some mentions to nationalism, mainly Basque. On Spanish Nationalism, the quotes are the following:

Quote

Nada se sabe de las ideas políticas de Paco en aquellos años de su juventud, que solo más adelante dejaría entrever en la influencia de las formas más nacionalistas y autoritarias del regeneracionismo de los primeros años del siglo XX.

Quote

El nacionalismo era más débil que en cualquier otro país europeo, y solo estaba medianamente presente en el ejército.

Quote

Sin embargo, tomó nota de la fundación del movimiento fascista Falange Española en Madrid en octubre de 1933. El primero en proponer ideas fascistas en España fue el escritor vanguardista Ernesto Giménez Caballero, que ya había llamado la atención sobre Franco, al menos de pasada, al referirse a él como el tipo de jefe militar fuerte que podría dirigir e inspirar un nuevo nacionalismo español. Pero el fascismo seguiría siendo débil en España y Franco no mostró interés en él. Los movimientos extremistas estaban lejos de su pensamiento, aunque esto cambiaría años después.

Quote

Por su parte, los de la derecha se llamaban a sí mismos «nacionales», un término que se tradujo en los medios extranjeros como «nacionalistas». En tanto que «nacionales», los insurgentes se afirmaban en su patriotismo, la tradición y la religión, y rápidamente generaron un apoyo popular, especialmente entre la mayor parte de las clases medias, así como en la población católica en general.

Quote

El 15 de septiembre hizo unas declaraciones al The Washington Post en las que mostraba su deseo de unirse a sus hermanos y a su causa, observando una vez más con cierta precisión que de la Guerra Civil saldría una dictadura, de una clase u otra, y que España necesitaba la «dictadura de las clases medias» que solo le podía proporcionar el nacionalismo. Sin embargo, no abandonó Washington con su mujer y su hija hasta que su hermano fue nombrado oficialmente Generalísimo, el 1 de octubre.

Quote

No se trataba solo de la transformación interna y del desarrollo de la nación, sino de la expansión de un nuevo poder político y militar. Cualquier política de un estado fuertemente nacionalista hace hincapié en el «engrandecimiento»1, y durante el curso de la Guerra Civil la doctrina nacional había descubierto que la verdadera identidad de España residía en el «imperio», un concepto que debía recuperarse con el fin de que España pudiera volver a ser plenamente España.

Quote

Alemania. Creía firmemente que un programa de nacionalismo económico y de autarquía era factible.

Quote

Serrano parecía muy seguro de sí mismo y de la política española. Antes de partir de Madrid, concedió una entrevista al Völkische Beobachter, el periódico oficial del Partido Nazi, que se publicó en Berlín el día 16, antes de que él llegara. Serrano identificaba el régimen de su cuñado con la doctrina fascista del nacionalismo proletario, y en la que resaltaba:

Quote

Se imponía un sentido de lo nacional, no un nacionalismo español que hostigase al nacionalismo vasquista, sino simplemente un concepto de nación.

Quote

Su política económica inicial fue estatista, autoritaria, nacionalista y autárquica, muy diferente de la orientación económica de la Europa occidental tras la Segunda Guerra Mundial y de las últimas fases de su propio régimen.

Quote

Las razones de aquella debilidad eran variadas, pero las fundamentales y más asentadas fueron estas: la ausencia de una amenaza exterior, la falta de participación en las rivalidades de las potencias europeas, la estrecha relación entre la identidad española y el catolicismo (que no favorecía el nacionalismo, generalmente asociado al liberalismo o al radicalismo), el lento ritmo de desarrollo económico y de un sistema educativo nacional, junto con el nacimiento de divisiones internas.

(footnote #27, Chapter 1)

Quote

En contraste, durante el siglo XIX los líderes eclesiásticos habían rechazado la noción de un nacionalismo español moderno, que ellos creían demasiado teñido de liberalismo.

(footnote #52, Chapter 6)

Quote

Carmen confirmó a los autores el sentimiento que tenía su padre hacia el Mercado Común: «Él siempre decía del Mercado Común: “Bah, eso es una cosa de mercaderes”. No le daba la importancia que ahora tiene. No se la dio nunca, porque para él, como era más bien nacionalista, esa unión de toda Europa le parecía muy difícil».

(footnote #61, Chapter 16)

Quote

Se apuntó inmediatamente que por una ironía de la historia aquella era también la fecha del aniversario de la muerte de su potencial rival en el liderazgo de la España nacionalista, José Antonio Primo de Rivera, fundador de la Falange, ejecutado por los republicanos en Alicante el 20 de noviembre de 1936.

(footnote #80, Chapter 20)

Only mention to Franco's Nationalism is from his daughter: "como era más bien nacionalista", "as he was somewhat of a Nationalist". 

I wonder why you did not quote his daughter. As unreliable as she could be, it is the only thing that vaguely supports the notion of Franco as Nationalist, and that is assuming she did not mean Patriot.

Edited November 15, 2022 by sunday

[sunday]

37 minutes ago, R E lee said:

Already done so. from your own source that contradicts you, you waste of bandwidth.

Reported

16 minutes ago, R E lee said:

For the record, you continue to change the content of past already replied to, and moved on from. Kindly learn some manners.

Reported

[sunday]

49 minutes ago, R E lee said:

Already done so. from your own source that contradicts you, you waste of bandwidth.

No, you did not. I just quoted all the references to Spanish Nationalism in the book.

Your quotes do not appear.

It seems unlikely that you have read the book.

Edited November 15, 2022 by sunday

[sunday]

25 minutes ago, Roman Alymov said:

As for me, that strongly resembles debates about "Russian nationalists" years ago. My usual answer was "What nation they are nationalists of? More correct word is "imperialists", butRus word "государственник" fits much better as it do not have negative connotation of "imperialism".

Similar problem as with Spain. Christian Orthodox state, difficult to put the Nation (and I am not talking about Rodina, mother country here, embodiment of Patriotism) on an altar already occupied by the Only, One, and True God.

[Der Zeitgeist]

22 minutes ago, sunday said:

Reported

Reported

Reported

[sunday]

@glenn239, what did you notice about that bat man?

Edited November 15, 2022 by sunday

[sunday]

4 minutes ago, Der Zeitgeist said:

Reported

 

[sunday]

1 hour ago, R E lee said:

Tom support the claim.  Uk saved 10,000 children for example in one programe https://www.history.com/news/holocaust-child-refugees-kindertransport-britain

Quote

In words of the first Israeli ambassador to Spain:

"The only country in Europe that really lent a hand to the Jews was a country in which there was no Jewish influence: Spain, which saved more Jews than all the democracies put together".

Ask Mr. Ambassador Shlomo Ben Ami, then.

Quote

Finalmente, cito a Shlomo Ben Ami, quien fuera el primer embajador israelí en España: “El poder judío no fue capaz de cambiar la política de Roosevelt hacia los judíos durante la II Guerra Mundial. El único país de Europa que de verdad echó una mano a los judíos fue un país en el que no había ninguna influencia judía: España, que salvó más judíos que todas las democracias juntas. Es todo muy complejo”. La cita está recogida en una entrevista concedida a la revista española Época en 1991.

 

[R011]

3 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

 

Yeah, well im sure that was some great consolation to all the Spaniards he murdered.

Much fewer than the number that would have been murdered if the Republicans had stuck around long enough for the Communists to have taken over, and a Soviet aligned Spain would have been a problem during the Cold War.  Like Pinochet, the lesser of two evils - but evil none the less.

[R E lee]

3 hours ago, sunday said:

No, you did not. I just quoted all the references to Spanish Nationalism in the book.

Your quotes do not appear.

It seems unlikely that you have read the book.

Anyone can read for themselves what i posted is to be found in the google book.https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=mgDWLYcTYIAC&q=nationalist#v=onepage&q=political views%2C believed in Nationalism%2C central authority and the Catholic religion and a strong central government&f=false

here are the pages i used.

[R E lee]

2 hours ago, sunday said:

Ask Mr. Ambassador Shlomo Ben Ami, then.

 

Your reply is devoid of numbers, i asked for numbers. If you going to keep making replies and you have me on ignore, and told me you would not do so,  kindly delete the sock puppet account your running to read my posts.

[R E lee]

3 hours ago, sunday said:

Ask Mr. Ambassador Shlomo Ben Ami, then.

 

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09518960208559126?journalCode=fmhr20

[sunday]

10 hours ago, sunday said:

Pffft

One only needs to look to the "solid" course bibliography, or similar:

I see your barely disguised wikipedia, and raise Stanley Payne:

https://www.amazon.com/Franco-Political-Biography-Stanley-Payne/dp/0299302105

Now, this is going to be interesting. Let's see the details of the initial book.

Quote

Franco: A Personal and Political Biography Hardcover – November 24, 2014
by Stanley G. Payne (Author), Jesús Palacios (Author)

Publisher ‏ : ‎ University of Wisconsin Press; 1st edition (November 24, 2014)
Language ‏ : ‎ English
Hardcover ‏ : ‎ 617 pages
ISBN-10 ‏ : ‎ 0299302105
ISBN-13 ‏ : ‎ 978-0299302108
Item Weight ‏ : ‎ 2.13 pounds
Dimensions ‏ : ‎ 9.1 x 5.9 x 1.9 inches

First mention of text in some book, no contexts provided:

8 hours ago, R E lee said:

Or you could know its an international online course run by the State University of NY, https://www.sunyconnect.suny.edu/

 

S Payne wrote that the outstanding feature of Falangism was its nationalism, p 58, Franco, its leader,  p 623 His political views,  believed in Nationalism, central authority and the Catholic religion and a strong central government. Francos nationalism was grounded in traditional Spanish Nationalism

 

When you have one foot in your mouth, dont add the other foot.

Asking for details of the source:

8 hours ago, sunday said:

There was no Spanish Nationalism. You may mistake Patriotism for Nationalism, but Nationalism and Catholicism are incompatible, and the defining trait of Spain, since the 8th century, was Catholicism.

Not one of the best courses of SUNY, I guess...

I would like to see a source on that bold part, like the actual title of the book. Payne has written several books on Spain.

Identification of the book source of the quotes without context.

6 hours ago, R E lee said:

From the book you citied,

Asking again for the quotes with context.

6 hours ago, sunday said:

Then you should be able to put the full quotes.

It could also be somewhat likely that one quote from pg. 58 and other from pg. 623 may not share the same context, and were the matter so clear, then it would have been easy to find only one quote supporting your position.

Second statement identifying the book source of the quotes without context.

6 hours ago, R E lee said:

Already done so. from your own source that contradicts you, you waste of bandwidth.

After some extensive quote of the original source, by Payne and Palacios, published in 2014, the other part agrees to post a link.

2 hours ago, R E lee said:

Anyone can read for themselves what i posted is to be found in the google book.https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=mgDWLYcTYIAC&q=nationalist#v=onepage&q=political views%2C believed in Nationalism%2C central authority and the Catholic religion and a strong central government&f=false

here are the pages i used.

Leaving until later the matter of which book is this one, Payne's opinions about Franco and nationalism (lower "n") do not appear in the 2014 book, but there are two very revealing footnotes about Spanish Nationalism in that book, the one by Payne and Palacios:

Quote

Las razones de aquella debilidad eran variadas, pero las fundamentales y más asentadas fueron estas: la ausencia de una amenaza exterior, la falta de participación en las rivalidades de las potencias europeas, la estrecha relación entre la identidad española y el catolicismo (que no favorecía el nacionalismo, generalmente asociado al liberalismo o al radicalismo), el lento ritmo de desarrollo económico y de un sistema educativo nacional, junto con el nacimiento de divisiones internas.

(footnote #27, Chapter 1)

En contraste, durante el siglo XIX los líderes eclesiásticos habían rechazado la noción de un nacionalismo español moderno, que ellos creían demasiado teñido de liberalismo.

(footnote #52, Chapter 6)

There is no mention of Franco in page 58.

Now, let's see the details of the book linked by @R E lee. Here is the Amazon link.

Details of the book as follows:

Quote

The Franco Regime, 1936–1975 Kindle Edition
by Stanley G. Payne  (Author)  Format: Kindle Edition

ASIN ‏ : ‎ B009NZHEY8
Publisher ‏ : ‎ University of Wisconsin Press; 1st edition (September 27, 2011)
Publication date ‏ : ‎ September 27, 2011
Language ‏ : ‎ English
File size ‏ : ‎ 9569 KB
Text-to-Speech ‏ : ‎ Enabled
Screen Reader ‏ : ‎ Supported
Enhanced typesetting ‏ : ‎ Enabled
X-Ray ‏ : ‎ Not Enabled
Word Wise ‏ : ‎ Enabled
Print length ‏ : ‎ 698 pages

So despite all the statements about the book, clearly there is a mistake in the identification of it. Perhaps a malfunction in Google?

Not the first time something like this happen. Could be another oversight. Perhaps the fourth one.

Edited November 15, 2022 by sunday
Still no answers, and syntax of the previous reason for edit was incorrect

[sunday]

2 hours ago, R E lee said:

Your reply is devoid of numbers, i asked for numbers. If you going to keep making replies and you have me on ignore, and told me you would not do so,  kindly delete the sock puppet account your running to read my posts.

Au contraire, there are plenty of numbers inside the link. You did follow the link, did not you?

Here, there is the link again.

Edited November 15, 2022 by sunday

[sunday]

 

[R E lee]

40 minutes ago, sunday said:

Au contraire, there are plenty of numbers inside the link. You did follow the link, did not you?

Here, there is the link again.

No, i asked you to do your own homework and post the numbers, you instead posted a link that has fantasy numbers.

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/escape-from-german-occupied-europe
1939 to 1941, 30,000
1942 to 44 7500

Total 37500 entered Spain.

1939 to 1941 300,000 fled to USSR

https://www.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Microsoft Word - 6034.PDF
. During the
first half of the war, some 20,000--30,000 Jews were given permission to pass
through Spain.
 During the summer of 1942 the Nazis began deporting Jews from France,
Belgium, Luxembourg, and the Netherlands. At that point, many Jewish
refugees crossed into Spain illegally. Those who were caught were arrested,
and the Spanish government planned to return them to France, where they
would face almost certain death. The Allies warned that the fate of these
refugees would have a major impact on Allied policy on Spain. As a result of 
that warning, Spain announced in April 1943 that it would admit refugees, as
long as some other party would provide for their care and the refugees would
leave the country as fast as they could. The refugees were mainly provided for
by the Joint Distribution Committee in Spain. Between the summer of 1942
and the fall of 1944, some 7,500 Jews fled to Spain and were given temporary
refuge. 

In January 1943 the German embassy in Spain told the Spanish
government that it had two months to remove all of its Jewish citizens from
Western Europe. Spain now had an opportunity to save the lives of 4,000
Spanish Jews---but instead of rising to the task, the government severely
regulated who was to be given entry visas. As a result of these restrictions,
only 800 Spanish Jews were allowed to enter Spain. After the war the Spanish
government claimed that it had protected all of its Jews, and the truth about its
real actions was hidden from the Spanish public. 

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/german-jewish-refugees-1933-1939

By September 1939, approximately 282,000 Jews had left Germany and 117,000 from annexed Austria. Of these, some 95,000 emigrated to the United States, 60,000 to Palestine, 40,000 to Great Britain, and about 75,000 to Central and South America, with the largest numbers entering Argentina, Brazil, Chile, and Bolivia. More than 18,000 Jews from the German Reich were also able to find refuge in Shanghai, in Japanese-occupied China.

So 37500 were allowed into Spain. 40,000 Jews entered the Uk by 39. 95k the USA. 60k to Palestine, which was British, so they have 100,000 Jews saved.

 

[sunday]

4 minutes ago, R E lee said:

No, i asked you to do your own homework and post the numbers, you instead posted a link that has fantasy numbers.

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/escape-from-german-occupied-europe
1939 to 1941, 30,000
1942 to 44 7500

Total 37500 entered Spain.

1939 to 1941 300,000 fled to USSR

https://www.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Microsoft Word - 6034.PDF
. During the
first half of the war, some 20,000--30,000 Jews were given permission to pass
through Spain.
 During the summer of 1942 the Nazis began deporting Jews from France,
Belgium, Luxembourg, and the Netherlands. At that point, many Jewish
refugees crossed into Spain illegally. Those who were caught were arrested,
and the Spanish government planned to return them to France, where they
would face almost certain death. The Allies warned that the fate of these
refugees would have a major impact on Allied policy on Spain. As a result of 
that warning, Spain announced in April 1943 that it would admit refugees, as
long as some other party would provide for their care and the refugees would
leave the country as fast as they could. The refugees were mainly provided for
by the Joint Distribution Committee in Spain. Between the summer of 1942
and the fall of 1944, some 7,500 Jews fled to Spain and were given temporary
refuge. 

In January 1943 the German embassy in Spain told the Spanish
government that it had two months to remove all of its Jewish citizens from
Western Europe. Spain now had an opportunity to save the lives of 4,000
Spanish Jews---but instead of rising to the task, the government severely
regulated who was to be given entry visas. As a result of these restrictions,
only 800 Spanish Jews were allowed to enter Spain. After the war the Spanish
government claimed that it had protected all of its Jews, and the truth about its
real actions was hidden from the Spanish public. 

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/german-jewish-refugees-1933-1939

By September 1939, approximately 282,000 Jews had left Germany and 117,000 from annexed Austria. Of these, some 95,000 emigrated to the United States, 60,000 to Palestine, 40,000 to Great Britain, and about 75,000 to Central and South America, with the largest numbers entering Argentina, Brazil, Chile, and Bolivia. More than 18,000 Jews from the German Reich were also able to find refuge in Shanghai, in Japanese-occupied China.

So 37500 were allowed into Spain. 40,000 Jews entered the Uk by 39. 95k the USA. 60k to Palestine, which was British, so they have 100,000 Jews saved.

 

Those numbers, the ones that make sense anyway, seem to match with those provided in the link.

BTW, you did not read the other Payne book from 2011, did you?

Edited November 15, 2022 by sunday

[R E lee]

51 minutes ago, sunday said:

Now, this is going to be interesting. Let's see the details of the initial book.

First mention of text in some book, no contexts provided:

Asking for details of the source:

Identification of the book source of the quotes without context.

Asking again for the quotes with context.

Second statement identifying the book source of the quotes without context.

After some extensive quote of the original source, by Payne and Palacios, published in 2014, the other part agrees to post a link.

Leaving until later the matter of which book is this one, Payne's opinions about Franco and nationalism (lower "n") do not appear in the 2014 book, but there are two very revealing footnotes about Spanish Nationalism in that book, the one by Payne and Palacios:

There is no mention of Franco in page 58.

Now, let's see the details of the book linked by @R E lee. Here is the Amazon link.

Details of the book as follows:

So despite all the statements about the book, clearly there is a mistake in the identification of it. Perhaps a malfunction in Google?

Not the first time something like this happen. Could be another oversight. Perhaps the fourth one.

Asked and answered.

[R E lee]

Just now, sunday said:

Those numbers, the ones that make sense anyway, seem to match with those provided in the link.

They otoh do not match you fantasy numbers and contradict the claim you used.

[sunday]

4 minutes ago, R E lee said:

Asked and answered.

Where? Your imagination does not count.

[sunday]

Looks like that, according to @R E lee, this book:

and this one:

are the same.

Notheworthy.

Edited November 15, 2022 by sunday

[sunday]

22 minutes ago, R E lee said:

They otoh do not match you fantasy numbers and contradict the claim you used.

Those are not my fantasy numbers, I was only quoting an expert.

However, considering that Ángel Sanz Briz managed to save 5,000 Jews in 1944 only, looks like my expert is more accurate that yours.

Also, Have you read any Stanley Payne book lately? Ever?

Edited November 15, 2022 by sunday