Colin Posted November 13, 2022 Share Posted November 13, 2022 Oh crap, I can see the end of flights or the end of multiple aircraft near each other. Two vintage warplanes collided in midair Saturday afternoon during the Commemorative Air Force Wings Over Dallas show at Dallas Executive Airport. In videos shared on social media, the P-63 was seen colliding into the back of the B-17 as it made a turn. The front of the B-17 broke off, and the plane’s wings erupted into flames as they hit the ground. https://www.dallasnews.com/news/2022/11/12/plane-crash-reported-during-air-show-at-dallas-executive-airport/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunday Posted November 13, 2022 Share Posted November 13, 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bfng3569 Posted November 13, 2022 Share Posted November 13, 2022 34 minutes ago, Colin said: Oh crap, I can see the end of flights or the end of multiple aircraft near each other. Two vintage warplanes collided in midair Saturday afternoon during the Commemorative Air Force Wings Over Dallas show at Dallas Executive Airport. In videos shared on social media, the P-63 was seen colliding into the back of the B-17 as it made a turn. The front of the B-17 broke off, and the plane’s wings erupted into flames as they hit the ground. https://www.dallasnews.com/news/2022/11/12/plane-crash-reported-during-air-show-at-dallas-executive-airport/ The video of it is just mind boggling. Wether the pilot of the P-63 had a medical issue or just misjudged everything, tragic no matter what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted November 13, 2022 Author Share Posted November 13, 2022 30 minutes ago, bfng3569 said: The video of it is just mind boggling. Wether the pilot of the P-63 had a medical issue or just misjudged everything, tragic no matter what. A pilot on another fourm said that the P63 pilots allowed his nose to block the lead on the B17, so he lost awareness of his closing velocity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beans4 Posted November 13, 2022 Share Posted November 13, 2022 Appears from the videos this was a Warbird Review with multiple aircraft doing flybys in trail at show center, done at many airshows without incident. My understanding these are thoroughly briefed beforehand, as to aircraft involved, and what each is supposed to be doing in the show and when. Seems safe to say the plan was not executed, with the result that the P-63 was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and as Colin said, in an attitude which blocked his view of the other aircraft in the review. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougRichards Posted November 13, 2022 Share Posted November 13, 2022 2 hours ago, beans4 said: Appears from the videos this was a Warbird Review with multiple aircraft doing flybys in trail at show center, done at many airshows without incident. My understanding these are thoroughly briefed beforehand, as to aircraft involved, and what each is supposed to be doing in the show and when. Seems safe to say the plan was not executed, with the result that the P-63 was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and as Colin said, in an attitude which blocked his view of the other aircraft in the review. Sorry, was not just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Looks like sheer negligence, or wanted to be a smart arse playing with the B-17, or maybe worse, a suicide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
futon Posted November 13, 2022 Share Posted November 13, 2022 It's a terrible loss. Pretty shocking footage in how quickly it happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Galbraith Posted November 13, 2022 Share Posted November 13, 2022 (edited) It reminded me of something I read about a B17 collision in WW2, that they had just come out of cloud, and the other B17 pilot, whom had apparently lost situational awareness, came out of cloud like a bat out of hell and collided with the other ship before he clocked it. The only problem with that theory is that there is seemingly no low cloud. And as for visibility, I should have thought the P63, a mid engined aircraft, had far better visibility over its nose than contemporary fighters. The only thing that springs to mind is that he was showboating around someone or something on the ground, and forgot there was a B17 in front of him. They really are going to have to stop this multiple aircraft spectaculars. They look good, but they really are bloody dangerous. If you are going to have dissimilar aircraft flyby, do it in formation so chances of things happening like this are minimised. Edited November 13, 2022 by Stuart Galbraith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beans4 Posted November 13, 2022 Share Posted November 13, 2022 5 hours ago, DougRichards said: Sorry, was not just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Looks like sheer negligence, or wanted to be a smart arse playing with the B-17, or maybe worse, a suicide. Well, way back in it its early days, the then-Confederate Air Force had some incidents where they were accused of that sort of thing, paying for those in aircraft and blood. I'd like to think those losses forced them to be more responsible and safety conscious. In this case, the P-63 pilot appeared in one video to be following a P-51 who was also not only outside the primary line of mostly bombers, but flying faster than they were. Had they been at a different altitude, probably would not have been a collision, and I'm guessing that P-51 pilot has already had some explaining to do. I'll grant that it almost looks like it could be deliberate, the way the P-63 hits the B-17 right in the middle of the fuselage behind the wing, as though he were trying to ram, but I'm not ready to go that far. On the other hand, I was unpleasantly surprised by the NTSB preliminary findings of the previous B-17 crash, the Collings Foundation's "909". I'd seen their planes and people a couple of times before, and they seemed not only very professional, but well-resourced. But there appear to have been serious maintenance deficiencies blamed on the now-deceased pilot, which I wouldn't have expected to be allowed to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenn239 Posted November 13, 2022 Share Posted November 13, 2022 2 hours ago, beans4 said: I'll grant that it almost looks like it could be deliberate, the way the P-63 hits the B-17 right in the middle of the fuselage behind the wing, as though he were trying to ram, but I'm not ready to go that far. Tragic. I don't think the P-63 pilot saw the B-17 until maybe the last second. The bomber appears to be 'under' his nose all the way as he banks for his pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beans4 Posted November 13, 2022 Share Posted November 13, 2022 1 hour ago, glenn239 said: Tragic. I don't think the P-63 pilot saw the B-17 until maybe the last second. The bomber appears to be 'under' his nose all the way as he banks for his pass. Yes, that seems likely. I've seen speculation on other forums that he was in a loose formation with two other fighters and so was focused on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenn239 Posted November 13, 2022 Share Posted November 13, 2022 Too early to say, but the age of the fighter pilot might be a factor. My brother a couple years back was doing formation work with a couple other planes, and on the ground one if the pilots simply forgot that a service truck was in front of his aircraft, (he could not see it directly over his nose). My brother watched him pour on the coal for taxi and ram right into the service truck. No one was hurt. If, as you theorize, the fighter pilot was focused on keeping station with a couple other fighters, he might have simply forgotten about the B-17. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKTanker Posted November 13, 2022 Share Posted November 13, 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim the Tank Nut Posted November 14, 2022 Share Posted November 14, 2022 an absolute tragedy. I just saw this about an hour ago. I can only imagine a stroke or heart attack. You'd have to be green to lose situational awareness in a tight knit air show. All the planes are so close together all of the time that awareness is critical. The pattern around an airshow is absurdly small for the planes. It looks big to the crowd but at 350 mph or even 100 mph the size of the airbox is tiny. I quit when I realized I no longer had the mental capacity to handle the risk load. It was the right decision for me. I'm more aware of the dangers than I was. I'd never advocate any restrictions on these types of shows as "preservation" always turns into "locked away out of sight and therefore out of mind" but I can see how people would advocate for that type of response. It's understandable but still wrong. I'm terribly sorry for the loss of life. I guess I get some consolation from knowing that these pilots really love what they are doing and for the most part they all know it's a full contact sport but when this sort of things happens it gets a person to thinking... IF the remaining B17's are grounded then no one will hear the engines again. It's not the solution Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKTanker Posted November 15, 2022 Share Posted November 15, 2022 Juan gives us some insight as to what was going on with actual flight data. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R011 Posted November 15, 2022 Share Posted November 15, 2022 This seems to be a good analysis by an experienced pilot who apparently knew some of the people involved: https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/warships1discussionboards/wwii-warbirds-collide-over-dallas-holy-sh-t-t47507-s20.html#p1013529 Tl:Dr version - the P-63 pilot probably lost situational awareness when trying to catch up with other fighters in formation. Low altitude and different airspeeds may have been contributing factors. Parade flybys should consider higher altitudes. Fighters should fly separately from bombers, either separated by height or time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DB Posted November 15, 2022 Share Posted November 15, 2022 Looks like the display plan didn't follow the principle of separating the fast movers from the bombers by altitude, or if it did then for some reason the three involved fighters didn't follow it. After that, Juan Browne's analysis looks sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKTanker Posted November 16, 2022 Share Posted November 16, 2022 6 hours ago, R011 said: This seems to be a good analysis by an experienced pilot who apparently knew some of the people involved: https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/warships1discussionboards/wwii-warbirds-collide-over-dallas-holy-sh-t-t47507-s20.html#p1013529 Tl:Dr version - the P-63 pilot probably lost situational awareness when trying to catch up with other fighters in formation. Low altitude and different airspeeds may have been contributing factors. Parade flybys should consider higher altitudes. Fighters should fly separately from bombers, either separated by height or time. It would appear that wabpilot and Juan Brown are the same person. The brief discussion he wrote is almost word for word what he described in his video. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DB Posted November 16, 2022 Share Posted November 16, 2022 9 hours ago, DKTanker said: It would appear that wabpilot and Juan Brown are the same person. The brief discussion he wrote is almost word for word what he described in his video. I think Juan Browne (I think the "e" is correct, but haven't checked) was not an F-4 pilot when he served, always flying transport aircraft. Since then he has done some fire-fighting flying and is currently a First Officer qualified on the B777. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beans4 Posted November 16, 2022 Share Posted November 16, 2022 The P-63 and it's pilot in better times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Kotsch Posted November 16, 2022 Share Posted November 16, 2022 (edited) 19 hours ago, R011 said: the P-63 pilot probably lost situational awareness when trying to catch up with other fighters in formation. That's my impression too. I work at an airfield on the tower. You have to keep 'one foot on the brake pedal' with the pilots. Otherwise they start playing heroes. Then it gets really dangerous. Edited November 16, 2022 by Stefan Kotsch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenn239 Posted November 16, 2022 Share Posted November 16, 2022 Offline summary from my brother, who does fly pasts at air shows, with same idea as what Stefan says above about increasing risk tolerance, Ya, either the air-boss or someone in the organizing group owns part of this for letting the setup go ahead, Probably a fair bit of what the accident guys call “normalized deviance”. They had been doing stupid flybys like this for years, probably incrementally adding more stupid things in over the years, and no one realized they were setting them selves up for a massive failure with just one small mistake. To me the critical thing is the lack of altitude separation between slow and fast movers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike1158 Posted November 16, 2022 Share Posted November 16, 2022 Interesting report but a factoid new to me, never knew the P-63 had a 70mm cannon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DB Posted November 16, 2022 Share Posted November 16, 2022 7 hours ago, Mike1158 said: Interesting report but a factoid new to me, never knew the P-63 had a 70mm cannon. It didn't. JB misspoke. It had a 37mm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiloMorai Posted November 17, 2022 Share Posted November 17, 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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