NATO return to Cold War force structure

[Perun]

Trump’s Plan for NATO Is Emerging.

Trump advisers envision a ‘radical reorientation’ in which Washington takes a back seat to Europe — and cuts a deal with Putin over Ukraine.

 

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/07/02/nato-second-trump-term-00164517

[Martineleca]

2 hours ago, Perun said:

Trump’s Plan for NATO Is Emerging.

Not that I expected much else from Politico, but if we go by what Trump said in the debate he reiterated that Putin's ceasefire proposal in its current form is unacceptable. Other negotiations later on that would involve establishment of a demilitarised zone and security for Ukraine guaranteed by the basing of NATO troops along its borders, those may have a greater chance of success. 

[Perun]

58 minutes ago, Martineleca said:

Not that I expected much else from Politico, but if we go by what Trump said in the debate he reiterated that Putin's ceasefire proposal in its current form is unacceptable. Other negotiations later on that would involve establishment of a demilitarised zone and security for Ukraine guaranteed by the basing of NATO troops along its borders, those may have a greater chance of success. 

I doubt that any NATO troops would be positioned anywere were could erupt fight. Both Russia and NATO members would object that

[Martineleca]

23 minutes ago, Perun said:

I doubt that any NATO troops would be positioned anywere were could erupt fight. Both Russia and NATO members would object that

This is the only way a ceasefire/armistice can hold, just like on the Korean peninsula, otherwise the aggressor nation will be tempted to invade again as soon as it's finished rebuilding its army. 

[Stuart Galbraith]

16 hours ago, Martineleca said:

British military shrinks by nearly 30% since 2000

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/british-military-shrinks-by-nearly-30-since-2000/

-The title is a bit misleading considering the overall numbers remained steady until about 2010 and started collapsing afterwards, especially the ground forces fell from 112 000 in 2004 to 77 000 in 2023.

Uhuh. And Ill give you 3 guesses what happened in 2010....

[Josh]

1 hour ago, Martineleca said:

This is the only way a ceasefire/armistice can hold, just like on the Korean peninsula, otherwise the aggressor nation will be tempted to invade again as soon as it's finished rebuilding its army. 

There is no way anyone is doing that, certainly not the U.S. under either president.

[Perun]

2 hours ago, Martineleca said:

This is the only way a ceasefire/armistice can hold, just like on the Korean peninsula, otherwise the aggressor nation will be tempted to invade again as soon as it's finished rebuilding its army. 

But in Korean war US was directly involved from begining while in Ukraine is not

[Martineleca]

4 hours ago, Josh said:

There is no way anyone is doing that, certainly not the U.S. under either president.

The US has troops stationed all over the world, recently some were reportedly killed in Jordan of all places, upholding the sovereignty of a country on Europe's frontier that has already shed so much blood so that NATO countries don't have to seems like a much higher calling than guarding Israel's flank.

[Mighty_Zuk]

18 minutes ago, Martineleca said:

The US has troops stationed all over the world, recently some were reportedly killed in Jordan of all places, upholding the sovereignty of a country on Europe's frontier that has already shed so much blood so that NATO countries don't have to seems like a much higher calling than guarding Israel's flank.

Israel, Ukraine, and Taiwan are the same fight. 

Russia, China, North Korea, and Iran may not be the best of friends toward one another, but they certainly share the same ambition to entrench themselves as permanent forces of evil and attempt to dismantle the world's democracies and civilizations. 

The active frontiers right now are Israel and Ukraine, and soon Taiwan unless the west succeeds in deterring China until an invasion becomes non-viable.

So there is no logic in abandoning any of the active frontiers, unless you argue that seeing the smaller picture is more important than seeing the bigger picture.

[Perun]

1 minute ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

Israel, Ukraine, and Taiwan are the same fight. 

Russia, China, North Korea, and Iran may not be the best of friends toward one another, but they certainly share the same ambition to entrench themselves as permanent forces of evil and attempt to dismantle the world's democracies and civilizations. 

The active frontiers right now are Israel and Ukraine, and soon Taiwan unless the west succeeds in deterring China until an invasion becomes non-viable.

So there is no logic in abandoning any of the active frontiers, unless you argue that seeing the smaller picture is more important than seeing the bigger picture.

In what way is this reality and not paranoid and twisted lie:  "permanent forces of evil and attempt to dismantle the world's democracies and civilizations."? Yea, wright...

And this:  "So there is no logic in abandoning any of the active frontiers"?

Israel is no kind of frontier when it is semitic-semitic conflict, not european-asiatic conflict. Best way for Israel to achive long lasting peace is justice toward neighbours and two states solution.

[Mighty_Zuk]

4 minutes ago, Perun said:

In what way is this reality and not paranoid and twisted lie:  "permanent forces of evil and attempt to dismantle the world's democracies and civilizations."? Yea, wright...

And this:  "So there is no logic in abandoning any of the active frontiers"?

Israel is no kind of frontier when it is semitic-semitic conflict, not european-asiatic conflict. Best way for Israel to achive long lasting peace is justice toward neighbours and two states solution.

I explained how this is a reality. Learn to read. And for the love of dog, learn to also write right, not wright, alright?

If you have any specific question or a valid counter-point, go ahead. 

Edited July 3, 2024 by Mighty_Zuk

[R011]

3 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

I explained how this is a reality. Learn to read. And for the love of dog, learn to also write right, not wright, alright?

If you have any specific question or a valid counter-point, go ahead. 

I'm sure if Israel would just remove all occupying troops from the West Bank, it would work out as well as it has in Gaza.

[Mighty_Zuk]

1 hour ago, R011 said:

I'm sure if Israel would just remove all occupying troops from the West Bank, it would work out as well as it has in Gaza.

The wettest of fantasies for the lacking mind.

Edited July 3, 2024 by Mighty_Zuk

[glenn239]

5 hours ago, Perun said:

In what way is this reality and not paranoid and twisted lie:  "permanent forces of evil and attempt to dismantle the world's democracies and civilizations."? Yea, wright...

What's MZ going to say?  That the Taiwanese are all over the Palestinians on Taiwan?  MZ is perfectly aware that Syria and Egypt were in the same fight in 1973....until they weren't.  Taiwan, Ukraine, and Israel have nothing in common, and the day Taiwan attaches itself to the boat anchor of Israel's Palestine policy is the day that Taipei has completely lost it.

[Josh]

6 hours ago, Martineleca said:

The US has troops stationed all over the world, recently some were reportedly killed in Jordan of all places, upholding the sovereignty of a country on Europe's frontier that has already shed so much blood so that NATO countries don't have to seems like a much higher calling than guarding Israel's flank.

I live in the U.S. and no one is dying for Ukraine or Israel, no matter how much either side screams.

[Josh]

5 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

Israel, Ukraine, and Taiwan are the same fight. 

Russia, China, North Korea, and Iran may not be the best of friends toward one another, but they certainly share the same ambition to entrench themselves as permanent forces of evil and attempt to dismantle the world's democracies and civilizations. 

The active frontiers right now are Israel and Ukraine, and soon Taiwan unless the west succeeds in deterring China until an invasion becomes non-viable.

So there is no logic in abandoning any of the active frontiers, unless you argue that seeing the smaller picture is more important than seeing the bigger picture.

No. Democrats or Republicans, No.

[Josh]

1 hour ago, R011 said:

I'm sure if Israel would just remove all occupying troops from the West Bank, it would work out as well as it has in Gaza.

Preventing their settlers from committing murder without repercussions would probably be a better starting place. Or perhaps not take more land than they have in decades. One or the other, if you believe in peace.

[Mighty_Zuk]

9 minutes ago, glenn239 said:

What's MZ going to say? 

Maybe the comment that I wrote 5 hours before yours?

1 minute ago, Josh said:

No. Democrats or Republicans, No.

What? 

[Josh]

11 minutes ago, glenn239 said:

What's MZ going to say?  That the Taiwanese are all over the Palestinians on Taiwan?  MZ is perfectly aware that Syria and Egypt were in the same fight in 1973....until they weren't.  Taiwan, Ukraine, and Israel have nothing in common, and the day Taiwan attaches itself to the boat anchor of Israel's Palestine policy is the day that Taipei has completely lost it.

Taiwan likeliest the exception, for economic reasons.

[Josh]

3 minutes ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

Maybe the comment that I wrote 5 hours before yours?

What? 

Israel doesn’t matter outside an election year and no Americans are dying for a nation state smaller than nyc that has zero strategic advantage.

Edited July 3, 2024 by Josh

[Mighty_Zuk]

21 minutes ago, Josh said:

Israel doesn’t matter outside an election year and no Americans are dying for a nation state smaller than nyc that has zero strategic advantage.

Who said anything about dying? None's dying for Ukraine right now either. The US only needs to provide material assistance. That's bipartisan.

[R011]

27 minutes ago, Josh said:

I live in the U.S. and no one is dying for Ukraine or Israel, no matter how much either side screams.

Nato currently does have troops in the Baltic States as tripwire forces and the US already has or frequently deploys troops to Poland and Romania.

[R011]

29 minutes ago, Josh said:

Preventing their settlers from committing murder without repercussions would probably be a better starting place. Or perhaps not take more land than they have in decades. One or the other, if you believe in peace.

Removing settlers didn't help in Gaza.  I used to believe in peace, but reality and the Palestinians don't

[Perun]

9 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

I explained how this is a reality. Learn to read. And for the love of dog, learn to also write right, not wright, alright?

If you have any specific question or a valid counter-point, go ahead. 

No, you didnt explain, as allways.

Ok, we disagree, again. I have no problem with that.

[Perun]

4 hours ago, glenn239 said:

What's MZ going to say?  That the Taiwanese are all over the Palestinians on Taiwan?  MZ is perfectly aware that Syria and Egypt were in the same fight in 1973....until they weren't.  Taiwan, Ukraine, and Israel have nothing in common, and the day Taiwan attaches itself to the boat anchor of Israel's Palestine policy is the day that Taipei has completely lost it.

Agree on this