NATO return to Cold War force structure

[Laser Shark]

Just now, seahawk said:

Good we please stop judging historic civilisations by modern standards?

Fine by me.

[Stuart Galbraith]

5 minutes ago, seahawk said:

Could we please stop judging historic civilisations by modern standards?

Yeah, like that's never happening.

https://www.brunel.ac.uk/news-and-events/news/articles/Henry-V-on-trial-Will-the-king-get-away-with-murder-in-front-of-a-21st-century-court

[Perun]

3 hours ago, Martineleca said:

Of course, the difference is Israel has never claimed they will come to Armenia's aid in a conflict, unlike Russia that did so while hypocritically selling battalions worth of T-90s, long range rocket artillery and combat helicopters to the Azeris. Hope Armenia and Georgia will come to their senses and apply for NATO membership that will provide them long-term protection before both are swallowed up by either of their huge neighbors...

Armenia wasnt attacked. War was in Nagorno Karabagh. Did Russia had or have any obligations toward Nagorno Karabagh?

[glenn239]

5 hours ago, Martineleca said:

. Hope Armenia and Georgia will come to their senses and apply for NATO membership that will provide them long-term protection before both are swallowed up by either of their huge neighbors...

You're thinking that the Georgians are looking at the Russians doing a tap dance on Ukraine's head while NATO does next to nothing and they're thinking, "yeah, let's get ourselves some of that!"

[Martineleca]

57 minutes ago, glenn239 said:

You're thinking that the Georgians are looking at the Russians doing a tap dance on Ukraine's head while NATO does next to nothing and they're thinking, "yeah, let's get ourselves some of that!"

You seem to forget that there was a war between the two countries not that long ago and Russia was compelled to back down, the lessons that the West ought to have learned from that experience were quickly forgotten and took the ongoing full-scale invasion to shake it out of its stupor. One is that when a nation makes a formal request to join the alliance they should be prepared to immediately host at least a few NATO brigades that would temporarily guarantee its security while the application is considered, no more KGB tactics of creating just enough chaos to jeopardize a candidacy. 

[glenn239]

2 hours ago, Martineleca said:

You seem to forget that there was a war between the two countries not that long ago and Russia was compelled to back down, the lessons that the West ought to have learned from that experience were quickly forgotten and took the ongoing full-scale invasion to shake it out of its stupor. One is that when a nation makes a formal request to join the alliance they should be prepared to immediately host at least a few NATO brigades that would temporarily guarantee its security while the application is considered, no more KGB tactics of creating just enough chaos to jeopardize a candidacy. 

And you seem to forget that Ukraine made an erroneous calculation on the merits of NATO protection and are getting their face stomped in for it.  Why Georgia would look at that and say, "yes, please!", God knows.  Now, maybe the West can payoff some sociopathic piece of shit to take Georgia down a ruinous path, but that would not be in Georgia's interests.

 

Edited June 7 by glenn239

[Martineleca]

22 minutes ago, glenn239 said:

And you seem to forget that Ukraine made an erroneous calculation on the merits of NATO protection and are getting their face stomped in for it. 

No NATO country has been attacked by an outside force since the alliance's founding so the merits are sound, the problem Ukraine had was that it wasn't able to convince the West to station even small tripwire units on its territory, had such been present Russia would have been sufficiently deterred. This is why Sweden and Finland were so keen on rapidly becoming members, the recipe for lasting peace is more NATO, not less.

[seahawk]

You mean the WarPac, because as long as it existed it's members were not attacked and there was no war between members. Since the WarPac is gone, NATO aggression has created plenty of wars in Europe.

[Martineleca]

23 hours ago, Perun said:

Armenia wasnt attacked. War was in Nagorno Karabagh. Did Russia had or have any obligations toward Nagorno Karabagh?

It was a war by proxy and the Armenians rushed headlong into it, partly because elements in their government honestly believed or were led to believe Russia would intervene against Azerbaijan and risk war with Turkey. This of course didn't even happen in 2020 when 90% of the Russian army wasn't bogged down in Ukraine, there was zero chance this time around. 

[Stuart Galbraith]

16 hours ago, seahawk said:

You mean the WarPac, because as long as it existed it's members were not attacked and there was no war between members. Since the WarPac is gone, NATO aggression has created plenty of wars in Europe.

1953 Berlin, 1956 Budapest, 1968 Prague...

[Perun]

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[Perun]

1 hour ago, Martineleca said:

It was a war by proxy and the Armenians rushed headlong into it, partly because elements in their government honestly believed or were led to believe Russia would intervene against Azerbaijan and risk war with Turkey. This of course didn't even happen in 2020 when 90% of the Russian army wasn't bogged down in Ukraine, there was zero chance this time around. 

I doubt that Armenian leadership counted on Russian help. At that time Pashinyan was Armenian prime minister and he is pro western. But still Russia managed to stop the war and settled truce. 

I dont know how much and what did US and EU sent as help to Armenia or did they do anything at all for Armenia. Do you have data on that maybe?

[Martineleca]

2 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

1953 Berlin, 1956 Budapest, 1968 Prague...

A unique military alliance that only ever attacked member states throughout its entire existence...

[DB]

On 6/5/2024 at 3:07 PM, sunday said:

So this is no something that belongs to Western civilization whatsoever

Curious.

Funny how your disquiet at the evilness of the Black Rifle Coffee Company no longer extends to the cases of abuse and what might easily be argued to be torture of ballerinas. My memory isn't so bad that you were expressing concern over this a few years ago. Or is your moral code as selective as a politician's?

[sunday]

8 hours ago, DB said:

Funny how your disquiet at the evilness of the Black Rifle Coffee Company no longer extends to the cases of abuse and what might easily be argued to be torture of ballerinas. My memory isn't so bad that you were expressing concern over this a few years ago. Or is your moral code as selective as a politician's?

Sorry, but your memory is so bad.

[Pavel Novak]

22 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

1953 Berlin, 1956 Budapest, 1968 Prague...

 

20 hours ago, Martineleca said:

A unique military alliance that only ever attacked member states throughout its entire existence...

And nearly added also 1980 Poland.

[Roman Alymov]

8 hours ago, DB said:

Funny how your disquiet at the evilness of the Black Rifle Coffee Company no longer extends to the cases of abuse and what might easily be argued to be torture of ballerinas. My memory isn't so bad that you were expressing concern over this a few years ago. Or is your moral code as selective as a politician's?

May be you are not aware that this girls are not only suffering it willingly, but they are the winners of tough decades-long competition to get into this torture (as girls usually start this at about 4-6 yo age, and it is massively expencive in both time and money for their parents). Each girl you see dancing balley on the stage of major theater is the top of pyramid of tens of thousands entering balley classes....

[sunday]

29 minutes ago, Roman Alymov said:

May be you are not aware that this girls are not only suffering it willingly, but they are the winners of tough decades-long competition to get into this torture (as girls usually start this at about 4-6 yo age, and it is massively expencive in both time and money for their parents). Each girl you see dancing balley on the stage of major theater is the top of pyramid of tens of thousands entering balley classes....

Meanwhile, in Arizona...

 

[urbanoid]

8 minutes ago, Pavel Novak said:

And nearly added also 1980 Poland.

Reportedly they briefly thought about it in 1980, but the idea was dead by mid-1981*. NATO assessment from that period was similar, that USSR would not intervene.

It looks like not only they didn't want to intervene, they were actively looking for excuses not to. Breznhev, Ustinov and Andropov were apparently against intervention. The martial law was the result of... the Soviet refusal to Jaruzelski's demand for the Red Army to enter Poland and 'restore order'. The one pushing for armed intervention in Poland was Honecker, but the Soviets told him off as well and it's not like he could have done anything by himself. Andropov said: "I don't know how the situation in Poland will develop, but even if Poland comes under Solidarność's control, too bad, it has to stay that way". 

Jaruzelski's junta justified the martial law by the threat of intervention that didn't exist. A measure officially claimed to be the one to 'save the nation' was actually an attempt to save the communist system FROM the nation. The only thing they achieved was a lost decade, the economy that was already in shambles got even worse, around a million people left the country in that period, many of our best (the ratio of those with higher education leaving the country in the 1980s was twice as much as in the general population). 

*also by mid-1981 Carter was no longer the US president, Reagan was. Even the former hinted at sanctions against USSR in case of intervention in Poland, the latter would probably go for really crippling ones. 

[Pavel Novak]

22 minutes ago, urbanoid said:

Reportedly they briefly thought about it in 1980, but the idea was dead by mid-1981*. NATO assessment from that period was similar, that USSR would not intervene.

It looks like not only they didn't want to intervene, they were actively looking for excuses not to. Breznhev, Ustinov and Andropov were apparently against intervention. The martial law was the result of... the Soviet refusal to Jaruzelski's demand for the Red Army to enter Poland and 'restore order'. The one pushing for armed intervention in Poland was Honecker, but the Soviets told him off as well and it's not like he could have done anything by himself. Andropov said: "I don't know how the situation in Poland will develop, but even if Poland comes under Solidarność's control, too bad, it has to stay that way". 

Jaruzelski's junta justified the martial law by the threat of intervention that didn't exist. A measure officially claimed to be the one to 'save the nation' was actually an attempt to save the communist system FROM the nation. The only thing they achieved was a lost decade, the economy that was already in shambles got even worse, around a million people left the country in that period, many of our best (the ratio of those with higher education leaving the country in the 1980s was twice as much as in the general population). 

*also by mid-1981 Carter was no longer the US president, Reagan was. Even the former hinted at sanctions against USSR in case of intervention in Poland, the latter would probably go for really crippling ones. 

I wrote about it somewhere else but the decision to invade Poland was done in 1980 and in Czechoslovakia the army got order to do that. Soldiers got live ammo, moved to polish border and only few hours before crossing it the invasion was recalled.

 

https://www.pametnaroda.cz/cs/magazin/stalo-se/na-polaky-pred-40-lety-zacala-mraziva-operace-krkonose

 

Edited June 9 by Pavel Novak

[seahawk]

Still it would not be an invasion but an intervention to stop a counter revolution and the WarPac was asked to help by the legitimate government.

[bojan]

10 hours ago, DB said:

... no longer extends to the cases of abuse and what might easily be argued to be torture of ballerinas.

???

Friend's GF is quite well known ballet dancer (not just locally). It is hard as hell, but none of ballerinas are doing it for anything other than joy of doing it (because even on top level money is shit compared to the investment of time, harshness of training etc). Those that had any kind of other motivation or any doubts leave after year or two. As with other "extreme" sportsmen (because ballet is primarily a sport), it is "runner's high" that gets people back to it time and time again. IOW, like with sadomasochists, who are we to judge what ballerinas find exciting if it was consensual?

 

Edited June 9 by bojan

[Martineleca]

4 hours ago, Pavel Novak said:

The decision to invade Poland was done in 1980 and in Czechoslovakia the army got order to do that. Soldiers got live ammo, moved to polish border and only few hours before crossing it the invasion was recalled.

Imagine the headlines around the world - Polish capital Warsaw is besieged by Warsaw Pact troops... the cognitive dissonance must have been too much even for the Soviet Politburo since they backed off. 

[TrustMe]

4 hours ago, bojan said:

???

Friend's GF is quite well known ballet dancer (not just locally). It is hard as hell, but none of ballerinas are doing it for anything other than joy of doing it (because even on top level money is shit compared to the investment of time, harshness of training etc). Those that had any kind of other motivation or any doubts leave after year or two. As with other "extreme" sportsmen (because ballet is primarily a sport), it is "runner's high" that gets people back to it time and time again. IOW, like with sadomasochists, who are we to judge what ballerinas find exciting if it was consensual?

 

My type of Ballerinas     https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7181546/?ref_=nm_flmg_unrel_1_act

 

 

[DB]

8 hours ago, sunday said:

Sorry, but your memory is so bad.

Of course it is.

Or maybe yours has forgotten something out of convenience.