Stuart Galbraith Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 1 minute ago, txtree99 said: The sweden arc is interesting, thats going to mean utilizing some rail links that haven thad strategic significance since WW2. Thats going to be fun to watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urbanoid Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 (edited) 18 minutes ago, sunday said: Ok, you have reasons to be paranoid. Russians too. Perhaps there could be a solution, built upon neutral countries, that could assuage both paranoid tendencies? Neutrality is usually temporary, unless you have geopolitical luxury like Switzerland. We have always rejected the ideas of 'dual guarantees from NATO and Russia' in the 1990s, as we would never trust such an arrangement. Well, Ukraine sort of had such guarantees, didn't end well for them. I don't think anyone in the region has to be lectured about the nature of Russia and what security arrangements we trust the most. Approval of NATO has pretty much always been high and remains so. If the same view is shared by countries like Poland, Sweden, Romania and Finland, that choose to be fully aligned with Western security structures, then maybe it's because we actually do know better? 15 minutes ago, sunday said: Problem of referenda is that they are snapshots, and situations change with time. I think that if the people of Donetsk and Donbass really, really wanted to follow Elenski neocon Russophobia, then the Ukrainian army would have not needed to keep bombing those two pieces of land since 2014. There was no president Zelenski in 2014? Would it be fully justified if Poland bombed Lithuania because of the language law where the rights of local Polish speakers (like education) are (or were? didn't pay attention really) being violated? Or doing the same in Belarus, coupled with breaking away and annexing border areas with local Polish majority? Hell, maybe we should bomb Belarus because Lukashenka has been violating the rights of Belarusian speakers consistently since the 1990s while he was pursuing Russification? IIRC at some point the only high schools teaching in Belarusian were in Poland. The answer is that the borders are what they are and if local Poles in Lithuania and Belarus don't like it, they can fuck off to Poland. Edited June 4 by urbanoid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perun Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 1 hour ago, Stuart Galbraith said: So you cite a website that is clearly dedicated to criticism of NATO, and unsurprisingly dont quote what Gorbachev said at all. Why am I not surprised? After all, he was the one in the room. He ought to know, right? He was even criticial of NATO expansion, vociferously. So it would have been trivially easy to protect his reputation and say 'They promised they wouldnt!' But honest cove that he was till the end, he said there was no promises. And indeed, he was completely right. Any promises were purely about Eastern Germany. A fact that even Putin seemingly recognised once upon a time, because he raised absolutely no objections about the Eastern European states joining when NATO asked him. And they did ask him, contrary to the narrative. I know that you dont like their sources but in spite of that sources are legitimate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavel Novak Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 1 hour ago, Perun said: So did assurances happened or not So was there written agreement or not? You know written agreement like Budapest memorandum. Anyway why should central european states lick russian boots because of that imperial complex? Wasn't there just several pages long discussion about racism towards slavic people? But once it is about subordination of central eauopean states under Moscow then it is ok somehow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perun Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 (edited) @Pavel Novak Who did said that subordination of any kind is ok? Edited June 4 by Perun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunday Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 (edited) 44 minutes ago, urbanoid said: Neutrality is usually temporary, unless you have geopolitical luxury like Switzerland. We have always rejected the ideas of 'dual guarantees from NATO and Russia' in the 1990s, as we would never trust such an arrangement. Well, Ukraine sort of had such guarantees, didn't end well for them. I don't think anyone in the region has to be lectured about the nature of Russia and what security arrangements we trust the most. Approval of NATO has pretty much always been high and remains so. If the same view is shared by countries like Poland, Sweden, Romania and Finland, that choose to be fully aligned with Western security structures, then maybe it's because we actually do know better? There was no president Zelenski in 2014? Would it be fully justified if Poland bombed Lithuania because of the language law where the rights of local Polish speakers (like education) are (or were? didn't pay attention really) being violated? Or doing the same in Belarus, coupled with breaking away and annexing border areas with local Polish majority? Hell, maybe we should bomb Belarus because Lukashenka has been violating the rights of Belarusian speakers consistently since the 1990s while he was pursuing Russification? IIRC at some point the only high schools teaching in Belarusian were in Poland. The answer is that the borders are what they are and if local Poles in Lithuania and Belarus don't like it, they can fuck off to Poland. The part in bold is not relevant whatsoever, as neither Lithuania nor Belarus are persecuting the local Poles. Also, you do not know what would Poland do if they were being persecuted. Mind experiments are not the same as historical facts, nor they are a valid tool to foresee the future. Edited June 4 by sunday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Galbraith Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 Nobody was persecuting local Russians in Ukraine, till they started being a pain in the assk demanding seperatism, which Russia happily abetted by arming them to the teeth and giving them passports. Im pretty sure historical facts are casually disregarded around here, so why not pull entirely different realities out our ass whilst we are at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old_goat Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 28 minutes ago, urbanoid said: Would it be fully justified if Poland bombed Lithuania because of the language law where the rights of local Polish speakers (like education) are (or were? didn't pay attention really) being violated? Or doing the same in Belarus, coupled with breaking away and annexing border areas with local Polish majority? Hell, maybe we should bomb Belarus because Lukashenka has been violating the rights of Belarusian speakers consistently since the 1990s while he was pursuing Russification? IIRC at some point the only high schools teaching in Belarusian were in Poland. If we had an army capable of doing that, I absolutely think it would be justified, and I would definitely support to return Kárpátalja to Hungary, based on what ukrainians do to ethnic hungarians and rusyns. Quite ridiculous that the liberal west protects and accepts everybody and everything including the worst degenerates, and punishes all kinds of real and not real bigotry, at the same time defends the regime with the worst human rights violations in europe since WW2... Would love to see their stupid faces if some EU member would mine their own border to not letting people leave the country... Stop this "poor victim ukraine" BS. They were asking for the russian invasion. Risking a nuclear apocalyse for this corrupt shithole is just insane in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old_goat Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 2 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said: Nobody was persecuting local Russians in Ukraine, Yes, sure, sure... Just translate the graffiti. OK, this is against hungarians, but since ukrainians loathe russians even more than us, its not hard to imagine the atrocities committed against them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urbanoid Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 13 minutes ago, sunday said: The part in bold is not relevant whatsoever, as neither Lithuania nor Belarus are persecuting the local Poles. Also, you do not know what would Poland do if they were being persecuted. Mind experiments are not the same as historical facts, nor they are a valid tool to foresee the future. Since the proposed language law was declaratively a major catalyst for rebellion, I'd say it is indeed relevant. The difference is that Poland didn't do things like supplying and (co) organizing armed rebellion in neighbouring state due to similar practice of lithuanisation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Galbraith Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 11 minutes ago, old_goat said: Yes, sure, sure... Just translate the graffiti. OK, this is against hungarians, but since ukrainians loathe russians even more than us, its not hard to imagine the atrocities committed against them. And how do you KNOW that isnt the standard Russian agitprop they have been doing across Europe? 'Nazi's' were spraying swastika's on synagogues in Ukraine, just weeks before they decided to invade Ukraine. one might be so cynical as to presume Russia had done it. Not that there isnt racism in Ukraine. There is everywhere. But Im not seeing any evidence of a persecuted majority in the east before the Russians activated them as a persecuted minority to justify their actions, even going so far as to blow up corpses to generate the necessary outrage. There was certainly nothing to justify Ukraine. Even the Tartars want the Russians out, because they were not the liberators they pretended to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perun Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 16 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said: Even the Tartars want the Russians out, because they were not the liberators they pretended to be. Do you have source for this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunday Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 (edited) 43 minutes ago, urbanoid said: Since the proposed language law was declaratively a major catalyst for rebellion, I'd say it is indeed relevant. The difference is that Poland didn't do things like supplying and (co) organizing armed rebellion in neighbouring state due to similar practice of lithuanisation. That language law was not the only thing. There was the disagreement with the Maidan rebellion also. So the relevancy is quite negligible. Also, neither Lithuania nor Belarus are persecuting the local Poles. Edited June 4 by sunday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunday Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 16 minutes ago, Perun said: Do you have source for this LZ 129 Hindenburg, I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ink Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 1 hour ago, Stuart Galbraith said: Nobody was persecuting local Russians in Ukraine, till they started being a pain in the assk demanding seperatism, which Russia happily abetted by arming them to the teeth and giving them passports. Im pretty sure historical facts are casually disregarded around here, so why not pull entirely different realities out our ass whilst we are at it. I can't check now but I'm pretty sure some right wingers at Maidan were promising to make Russian illegal if Yanukovich was ousted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunday Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 6 minutes ago, ink said: I can't check now but I'm pretty sure some right wingers at Maidan were promising to make Russian illegal if Yanukovich was ousted. Then there was that massacre at the Trade Unions House in Odessa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urbanoid Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 (edited) 31 minutes ago, sunday said: That language law was not the only thing. There was the disagreement with the Maidan rebellion also. So the relevancy is quite negligible. Also, neither Lithuania nor Belarus are persecuting the local Poles. Depends what one counts as a persecution. Does discrimination (legal and financial) against Polish schools, which in practice often means closing them, count? Does lithuanization of street names in (local) majority Polish areas count? Does discriminating against Poles (local ones, Lithuanian citizens) when it comes to returning what has been nationalized by the Soviets count? And in Belarus, does bullying people into giving up their 'Pole Cards'* by using threat of losing their jobs in public sector count? Do the interrogations of said card's holders by KGB agents in their workplace count? Does keeping a local Polish journalst and activist Poczobut in solitary confinement for years under bogus charges, because he dared to criticize the Potato Tsar and fight for the rights of local Poles (which lead to charges of 'rehabilitation of nazism', among other things, finally they settled on 'inciting hatred') count? *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karta_Polaka Edited June 4 by urbanoid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urbanoid Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 1 hour ago, old_goat said: If we had an army capable of doing that, I absolutely think it would be justified, and I would definitely support to return Kárpátalja to Hungary, based on what ukrainians do to ethnic hungarians and rusyns. Quite ridiculous that the liberal west protects and accepts everybody and everything including the worst degenerates, and punishes all kinds of real and not real bigotry, at the same time defends the regime with the worst human rights violations in europe since WW2... Would love to see their stupid faces if some EU member would mine their own border to not letting people leave the country... Stop this "poor victim ukraine" BS. They were asking for the russian invasion. Risking a nuclear apocalyse for this corrupt shithole is just insane in my opinion. We DO have an army for that, but at the same time we reject such solutions, because they might open pandora's box of irredentism in the region. And I would NOT support any border changes in the region. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunday Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 5 minutes ago, urbanoid said: Depends what one counts as a persecution. Does discrimination (legal and financial) against Polish schools, which in practice often means closing them, count? Does lithuanization of street names in (local) majority Polish areas count? Does discriminating against Poles (local ones, Lithuanian citizens) when it comes to returning what has been nationalized by the Soviets count? And in Belarus, does bullying people into giving up their 'Pole Cards'* by using threat of losing their jobs in public sector count? Do the interrogations of said card's holders by KGB agents in their workplace count? Does keeping a local Polish journalst and activist Poczobut in solitary confinement for years under bogus charges, because he dared to criticize the Potato Tsar and fight for the rights of local Poles (which lead to charges of 'rehabilitation of nazism', among other things, finally they settled on 'inciting hatred') count? *https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karta_Polaka Still no bombing, nor artillery strikes. Do you want to reach some common point of agreement, or are you striving to show how smart you are? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urbanoid Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 1 minute ago, sunday said: Still no bombing, nor artillery strikes. Do you want to reach some common point of agreement, or are you striving to show how smart you are? No bombing and no artillery strikes as there was no state of armed rebellion of local Poles anywhere, which in case of Ukraine came BEFORE bombs and arty shells started flying. And there was no armed rebellion because, among other things, Poland was never interested in organizing/supporting such in neighbouring states, unlike Russia in Ukraine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunday Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 No Maidan in Lithuania nor in Belarus... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Galbraith Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 1 hour ago, old_goat said: If we had an army capable of doing that, I absolutely think it would be justified, and I would definitely support to return Kárpátalja to Hungary, based on what ukrainians do to ethnic hungarians and rusyns. Quite ridiculous that the liberal west protects and accepts everybody and everything including the worst degenerates, and punishes all kinds of real and not real bigotry, at the same time defends the regime with the worst human rights violations in europe since WW2... Would love to see their stupid faces if some EU member would mine their own border to not letting people leave the country... Stop this "poor victim ukraine" BS. They were asking for the russian invasion. Risking a nuclear apocalyse for this corrupt shithole is just insane in my opinion. How would you feel if Britain suddenly felt like a chunk of Eire? Germany fancied realigning its borders with Poland? Turkey realigning its borders with Syria? Right for one, right for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ink Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 1 minute ago, Stuart Galbraith said: How would you feel if Britain suddenly felt like a chunk of Eire? Germany fancied realigning its borders with Poland? Turkey realigning its borders with Syria? Right for one, right for everyone. This "how would you feel if" line of thinking might not be your best debating strategy. Half the world has a "how would you feel if" already lined up for Britain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perun Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said: How would you feel if Britain suddenly felt like a chunk of Eire? Germany fancied realigning its borders with Poland? Turkey realigning its borders with Syria? Right for one, right for everyone. Is there any reason why you didnt mention Israel borders? Edited June 4 by Perun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunday Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 (edited) Ah, feelings, that most reasonable of the rationales... Edited June 4 by sunday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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