NATO return to Cold War force structure

[urbanoid]

12 minutes ago, sunday said:

When the PRC got the permanent seat in the Security Council, it was clear who was China.

With the clear, semi-official position of the US that 'One China' is to fuck off from 'Other China'.

[sunday]

8 minutes ago, urbanoid said:

With the clear, semi-official position of the US that 'One China' is to fuck off from 'Other China'.

That was then, when the PRC economy was a small fraction of the US one.

Now...

[Martineleca]

12 hours ago, sunday said:

That was then, when the PRC economy was a small fraction of the US one.

Now...

I think they missed an opportunity to successfully invade Taiwan two years ago when all eyes were on Ukraine, if there wasn't such deep mistrust between Russia and China a simultaneous attack on both sides of the globe overwhelming Western resources could have been coordinated. As things stand today the West is entering a pre-1970 military aid posture when it could support at least half a dozen allied countries in a high-intensity conventional conflict indefinetely, the subsequent abandonment of which led to the near-loss of Israel in the Yom Kippur war and collapse of South Vietnam.. 

[seahawk]

So you plan on denying the Global South the right to solve conflicts on their own terms and expect them to bow to Western imperialism again? I doubt that will happen. Western puppet regimes lack any moral authority. They are as weak and corrupt as the West. The Global South despises them.

[Martineleca]

1 hour ago, seahawk said:

So you plan on denying the Global South the right to solve conflicts on their own terms...

When the Noth Korean military charged across the 38th parallel with 100% of their heavy equipment supplied to them by China and the Soviet Union to crush the much-lighter equipped South, was that an instance of "own terms" warfare?

[seahawk]

Yes, it was. It was a natural rebellion against Western imperialism.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Replacing Western Imperialism for Asian Imperialism? Whom could possibly object?

 

[urbanoid]

2 hours ago, Martineleca said:

I think they missed an opportunity to successfully invade Taiwan two years ago when all eyes were on Ukraine, if there wasn't such deep mistrust between Russia and China a simultaneous attack on both sides of the globe overwhelming Western resources could have been coordinated. As things stand today the West is entering a pre-1970 military aid posture when it could support at least half a dozen allied countries in a high-intensity conventional conflict indefinetely, the subsequent abandonment of which led to the near-loss of Israel in the Yom Kippur war and collapse of South Vietnam.. 

No they didn't, such an invasion would require gigantic and lengthy preparations that would have been impossible to miss. And the West 'having eyes on Ukraine' would not be a factor that helped the Chinese, at least not much - the equipment needed to defend Taiwan is mostly from different category than what the West sends to Ukraine, the American forces are also as present in the area as they were before and have been the whole time. 

[Stuart Galbraith]

Its worth studying what was necessary to take Sicily in WW2. And that was against an opponent they had all but air supremacy over, and had conducted a successful subversion campaign (Operation Mincemeat) to make the Axis thing they were landing elsewhere.

Anyone here thing they could land 160000 troops on a single day? How many Siebel ferries is that Glenn?

Initial strength: 160,000 personnel 600 tanks 14,000 vehicles 1,800 guns[5] Peak strength: 467,000 personnel[6]

Italy: 131,359[7]–252,000 personnel[8] 260 tanks 1,400 aircraft[9] Germany: 40,000–60,000 personnel[6][10]

[Martineleca]

1 hour ago, seahawk said:

It was a natural rebellion against Western imperialism.

I think you're underestimating the joy of not having to drive a Trabant made of cardboard due to a lack of options anymore...

 

Edited May 23 by Martineleca

[seahawk]

44 minutes ago, Martineleca said:

I think you're underestimating the joy of not having to drive a Trabant made of cardboard due to a lack of options anymore...

 

So that is a reason to enforce Western will on the Global South - protect markets?

[Martineleca]

8 hours ago, seahawk said:

So that is a reason to enforce Western will on the Global South - protect markets?

Even the most repressive society has a market of one sort or another, what matters is the extent to which it is limited by national policy. In the case of the Eastern Bloc countries a state of artificial scarcity was enforced by governments for everything from home appliances to tropical fruits, there's also the issue of producing automobiles into the 1980s that had fewer amenities and power than a Ford Model A from the 1930s, then forcing people to wait for years to finally receive this super basic transportation, it's not hard to see how such an unnatural system failed. 

[R011]

On 5/22/2024 at 2:21 AM, Martineleca said:

The idea is that ROC is a de facto Chinese nation that has just as much claim to that ancient heritage as the PRC that attempted to erase it during the cultural revolution, it was the UN that went out of its way to alter that in 1971, though if relations deteriorate further it may switch back once more.

Taipei rules one medium small island  and a few much smaller islands with a population of twenty-four million people.  Beijing rules all of mainland China and a bit more with a population of over a billion, including all the land  surrounding Hong Kong.  You can claim Taiwan is the rightful government of China, but the people of China already decided against that in 1949.

[Martineleca]

1 hour ago, R011 said:

You can claim Taiwan is the rightful government of China, but the people of China already decided against that in 1949.

The people of China didn't decide anything really and were never asked, anymore than they could "decide" that millions of them should starve in Mao's great fall backwards, much more than in the darkest days of Japanese occupation. The decision that China would turn red was made by Stalin and elements of the US government who either did not foresee the strategic consequences of failing to support Chiang Kai-shek's forces or were outright Soviet symphatizers, there were a whole lot of the latter group by the way.

[Josh]

As a practical matter, both Chinas exist as separate countries despite whatever diplomatic hand waiving one may say.

[Stuart Galbraith]

And, contrary to the usual narrative, BOTH countries have seats on the UN security council.

[bojan]

5 hours ago, Martineleca said:

The people of China didn't decide anything really and were never asked...

They were, with an ultimate question - they could have fought  with CMT government instead of mass deserting on every opportunity.

[Stuart Galbraith]

 

[Martineleca]

4 hours ago, bojan said:

They could have fought with CMT government instead of mass deserting on every opportunity.

Nationalist forces significantly overmatched the communists until 1945, when a combination of the capture of surrendering IJA stocks and Soviet cover to stage operations led to the latter having an advantage. Trusting the loyalty of warlords that would stick it out until the end was indeed quiestionable policy, but the KMT had little choice in the absence of adequate US support. Bravery and dedication are commendable though hardly enough when you run out of ammunition, this is how South Vietnam was lost as well. 

[Stuart Galbraith]

'Not our fight!'

'We are spending too much!'

'Leave it to the Europeans!'

etc etc etc.

[seahawk]

1 hour ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

 

There is border between 2 parts of Russia.

[Martineleca]

1 hour ago, seahawk said:

There is border between 2 parts of Russia.

Just as the Sakhalin strait is a border between two parts of Japan?

[urbanoid]

2 minutes ago, Martineleca said:

Just as the Sakhalin strait is a border between two parts of Japan?

Between two parts of Russia as well. Japan is Russia too. 

[R011]

9 hours ago, bojan said:

They were, with an ultimate question - they could have fought  with CMT government instead of mass deserting on every opportunity.

The KMT aligned governments were so corrupt as to make Putin's regime look like Switzerland.  They were also as murderously oppressive as one would expect from fascists and warlords and hopelessly incompetent.  The CCP, on the other hand, were honest, competent, and gave peasant tenants their own land.  Of course, once they consolidated power and let Mao take full charge of the economy, that all went to shit, but that was a few years after they took over.  Meanwhile, the KMT on Taiwan became better organized and somewhat less corrupt fascists and things got better as time went on.

[Martineleca]

48 minutes ago, R011 said:

Meanwhile, the KMT on Taiwan became better organized and somewhat less corrupt fascists and things got better as time went on.

Pretty much following the South Korea example of third way development, all things considered they performed fairly well against superior Japanese forces when guided by Western powers. Germany directly advised and supplied them up to 1940, also educating many ROC officers who later went on to become generals, American aid eventually surged to a similar level however too late to hold on to the mainland. One of the reasons Chiang Kai-shek decided to fully evacuate to Taiwan is because rather than making a desperate last stand he wanted to preserve his army and re-invade at a more opportune time while the communist grip in the outer provinces was still weak, the Korean war may have been the last possible moment when such an operation could have plausibly gone ahead had enough US support been provided. 

Edited May 24 by Martineleca