NATO return to Cold War force structure

[Laser Shark]

We used to have certain units who were well suted for this type of threat, but of course, the higher ups had them disbanded since there would be little need for such cold war relics in the future...

Edited May 5 by Laser Shark

[Stuart Galbraith]

Yeah. We had a Home Guard style unit to defend military installation. The problem being, you would theed them in time of peace, and would do much against attacks on civilian targets.

There is so much we threw away that we need to pick up again.

[bojan]

10 hours ago, Martineleca said:

...- The only thing worse than German occupation, is Soviet liberation....

You have to be real moron to say something like that.

[Martineleca]

2 hours ago, bojan said:

You have to be real moron to say something like that.

Not my creation, just a little bit of old East Euro folklore that contradicts thousands of commie talking points regurgitated daily for 80 years regardless of the truth. 

[bojan]

So there were/are a lot of morons in eastern Europe that thought that Germans were better than Soviets.

So tell, us, which eastern European country are you from?

Edited May 5 by bojan

[Martineleca]

46 minutes ago, bojan said:

So there were/are a lot of morons in eastern Europe that thought that Germans were better than Soviets.

One of the strangest aspects of Soviet reorganization of occupied territories, is the insistence of re-establishing unnatural borders and multinational states like Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia. The Soviet Union itself was the same way so it shouldn't be surprising they tried to export that model, any country made up of different peoples held together by force will eventually fail. Yugoslavia had been broken up twice in its history before finally collapsing into civil war, frankly the Serbs, Croats and Bosnians are all much better for it, being allowed to pursue their seperate destinies. I fully expect this to happen in Russia too, the only thing a Chechen has in common with a Buryat is that both are being sent to die for the imperial ambitions of a third group (Russians), that's not enough to sustain an empire in the modern age and the cracks in the state apparatus of Moscow today are more visible than Belgrade just before it went bust. 

Edited May 5 by Martineleca

[bojan]

6 minutes ago, Martineleca said:

One of the strangest aspects of Soviet reorganization of occupied territories, is the insistence of re-establishing unnatural borders and multinational states like Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia.

Reestablishment of Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia had nothing to do with Soviets.

Quote

Serbs, Croats and Bosnians

W/o commies there would have been no "Bosnian" nation. 

Rest of your post is a same level crap as a quoted bits.

 

Again, what country are you from?

[Martineleca]

Just now, bojan said:

Reestablishment of Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia had nothing to do with Soviets.

Well someone had to force the Croats, Slovenes and "Macedonians" back under the Shumadijan yoke, sure as hell wasn't gonna be Tito and his merry band of cave dwelling thugs. 

[bojan]

So, a Tito, who was Croat, and Stane Dolance who was Slovenian have forced Croats and Slovenes to live under Serbian yoke? What fucking alternate reality you live in?

Also, why did you put Macedonians under quote signs?  

Tell us your country, lets see what paragon of virtue you were in WW2 and before it...

Edited May 5 by bojan

[sunday]

6 minutes ago, bojan said:

So, a Tito, who was Croat, and Stane Dolance who was Slovenian have forced Croats and Slovenes to live under Serbian yoke? What fucking alternate reality you live in?

Also, why did you put Macedonians under quote signs?  

Tell us your country, lets see what paragon of virtue you were in WW2 and before it...

Poland, I guess.

[Martineleca]

21 minutes ago, bojan said:

So, a Tito, who was Croat, and Stane Dolance who was Slovenian have forced Croats and Slovenes to live under Serbian yoke?

Stalin and Beria were Georgians, that didn't stop them from committing terrible crimes against Georgia, the entire concept of the communist international depends on people willing to betray their nation, as those murderous schizos you mentioned wholeheartedly did.

Edited May 5 by Martineleca

[bojan]

17 minutes ago, sunday said:

Poland, I guess.

I think one of the countries that licked German's ass hard enough so Germans only killed "undesirables" in his country. And he considers that better because he and his ilk also considered them undesirables.

I dare to guess Bulgaria, since he put Macedonians under quotation marks, which is something only Serbs, Bulgarians and Greeks would do.

Edited May 5 by bojan

[Martineleca]

4 minutes ago, bojan said:

I think one of the countries that licked German's ass

This coming from the country that made a career out of sucking russia's balls to the point of sparking a world war, then getting gang banged multiple times in the last century for all that trouble?

[R011]

Had the Nazis won, there would have been no Poles,and very few Belorus, Ukrainians, or European Russians within a decade.  After forty five years of Soviet Communism, they still existed and had the chance to become better - though only Poland seems to have managed.  Where the Nazis closed schools seminaries, and universities, and slaughtered the teachers,the Soviets reopened them.  Where the a is wanted corpses and subsistence level serfs, the Soviets wanted educated and healthy peoples with real economic growth and got it - though arguably less than a free market,democratic economy and polity would have.

[seahawk]

Even comparing Germans to Russians is just laughable.

[Stuart Galbraith]

5 hours ago, R011 said:

Had the Nazis won, there would have been no Poles,and very few Belorus, Ukrainians, or European Russians within a decade.  After forty five years of Soviet Communism, they still existed and had the chance to become better - though only Poland seems to have managed.  Where the Nazis closed schools seminaries, and universities, and slaughtered the teachers,the Soviets reopened them.  Where the a is wanted corpses and subsistence level serfs, the Soviets wanted educated and healthy peoples with real economic growth and got it - though arguably less than a free market,democratic economy and polity would have.

The Poles were exceptional though. They were such an utter pain in the ass to the Soviets, they were allowed to get away with things unthinkable in other Soviet established Eastern Bloc states. They still had a vaguely independent Catholic church, and didnt have forced collectivisation. And lets not forget the Trade Unions...

The point is, the reason why they were better, is because the Soviets eventually gave them extreme largesse to avoid becoming a bigger problem. And arguably they were still the chip in the wall that tore a hole in the Iron curtain. Their success was nothing to do with the Soviet input. Arguably all the Soviets did was hold them back.

There is a very fine book by Anna Funder called 'Stasiland', about what it was like to live in the East German peoples republic. The most common refrain was 'it was possible to have a very nice life'. Yes, as long as you didnt end up in the regimes sights anyway. Which as you could be forced to be an informer on your friends or have your scholorship taken away, or your job, or your career, was not altogether likely.

And they did kill people. Not, ostensibly, executed. No. In stasiland, one young woman loses her husband in Hohenshonhausen prison. Supposedly he 'died' in custody. Was he beaten to death? Dont know, he was cremated. The East Germans learned from the Soviets how to doctor the books.

if the Nazi's were highly efficient killers, sooner or later they would have run out of bodies. The Soviets would just have kept on killing until they had the perfect society, however long that took. Which was never going to arrive. There is a calculation on Wikipedia, that seem to suggest the Soviets 'just' killed something like 4.6 million, against the 6 million we know the Nazi's murdered, and the 20 million Soviets. On the face of it, It looks like the Soviets didnt compare.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excess_mortality_in_the_Soviet_Union_under_Joseph_Stalin

Except... it doesnt illustrate how many died in the wars the Soviets financed. Korea, Vietnam, Yom Kippur, the numerous wars of liberation in Africa. The amount that died in China, after the USSR assisted Mao success in the civil war. Then add on top of that the amount of ruined lives, of peoples futures crippled living under a one party state, family members jailed, lives bent out of shape. That so many of us had to wake up for 40 years, idly wondering if this was going to be the day the bomb got dropped. The latter I can say has definately changed my worldview, and not for the better.

No, there is nothing in it between Fascism and Bolshevism. Its just two sides of the same wheel. Arguing about who had the bigger pile of bodies is only taking on half the discussion.

Edited May 6 by Stuart Galbraith

[Stuart Galbraith]

1 hour ago, seahawk said:

Even comparing Germans to Russians is just laughable.

Nobody is. Germans are Germans, and Russians are Russians. The political systems both were harnessed to live under is entirely another discussion.

I say, can we get back to discussing what happening in Eastern Europe right now? This discussion is getting a little stale and pointless.

[sunday]

6 hours ago, R011 said:

Had the Nazis won, there would have been no Poles,and very few Belorus, Ukrainians, or European Russians within a decade.  After forty five years of Soviet Communism, they still existed and had the chance to become better - though only Poland seems to have managed.  Where the Nazis closed schools seminaries, and universities, and slaughtered the teachers,the Soviets reopened them.  Where the a is wanted corpses and subsistence level serfs, the Soviets wanted educated and healthy peoples with real economic growth and got it - though arguably less than a free market,democratic economy and polity would have.

Kinda true, in a way, but the Katyn Massacre did happen, and that shows that the Soviets wanted a Poland devoid of her guiding elites, the szlachta especially, little more than a slave state.

Fortunately, a young Karol Józef Wojtyła survived, and the rest is history.

Edited May 6 by sunday

[Martineleca]

9 hours ago, R011 said:

though arguably less than a free market,democratic economy and polity would have.

Well this is what actually happened in Spain, despite some Western politicians trying to sway the public to support Church-burning Priest-slaying communists by presenting them as "republicans", it ended up as a fairly regular European semi-Monarchy that somehow managed to avoid the continent-wide bloodshed.  

Edited May 6 by Martineleca

[TrustMe]

2 hours ago, Martineleca said:

Well this is what actually happened in Spain, despite some Western politicians trying to sway the public to support Church-burning Priest-slaying communists by presenting them as "republicans", it ended up as a fairly regular European semi-Monarchy that somehow managed to avoid the continent-wide bloodshed.  

 

Not sure about how Spain avoided WW2. Didn't Spainsh volunteers fight on the Eastern Front?

[sunday]

15 minutes ago, TrustMe said:

Not sure about how Spain avoided WW2. Didn't Spainsh volunteers fight on the Eastern Front?

Spain avoided WWII. One of the great successes of Franco in international politics, even it that kept Spain out of the aid of the Marshall Plan.

A key player in keeping Spain out of WWII was Luis Carrero Blanco, a navy commander at the time, future admiral and PM, that composed a very well put report on the unwiseness of entering WWII.

You could see the main points of that report in this link in Spanish:

https://www.portierramaryaire.com/arts/espana_sgm_1.php

Edited May 6 by sunday

[TrustMe]

9 minutes ago, sunday said:

Spain avoided WWII. One of the great successes of Franco in international politics, even it that kept Spain out of the aid of the Marshall Plan.

A key player in keeping Spain out of WWII was Luis Carrero Blanco, a navy commander at the time, future admiral and PM, that composed a very well put report on the unwiseness of entering WWII.

You could see the main points of that report in this link in Spanish:

https://www.portierramaryaire.com/arts/espana_sgm_1.php

Thanks for clearing that up Sunday.

The report was very interesting especially about how dependent Spain was on trade from the Americas. Also about how Spain may of declared war on Britian if the Germans took the Suez Canal.

[sunday]

Thanks, sometimes I think that report deserves its own thread here.

[seahawk]

Please do so. A fascinating topic. (And my Spanish seems finally good enough to actually understand the website)

[futon]

9 minutes ago, seahawk said:

Please do so. A fascinating topic. (And my Spanish seems finally good enough to actually understand the website)

Here you go: https://www.tanknet.org/index.php?/topic/48744-spain-during-ww2/