NATO return to Cold War force structure

[Mistral]

1 hour ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

As Berliners called the Soviet War memorial there, 'The Tomb of the Unknown Rapist'...

Considering that those getting raped were the mothers, sisters and daughters of “men” who did the massacres in Poland, Yugoslavia or Greece and a million other unknown places I think that as a race they got off extremely lightly at the end of the war.

That Russians and rest did not implement the 100 to 1 quota as championed by the Germans is an unexplained mystery. Unfortunately the play stupid games win stupid prizes rule was not applied and I do blame the Communists for that.

[Martineleca]

1 hour ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

As far as the intelligentsia, yes, I think it fair to say it was something of a Holocaust. You either left for the west, or you ended up gritting the roads.

I'm sure most Americans and Brits on the ground that had hoped to go home didn't expect to spend the latter half of 1945 and 1946 securing travel corridors for people escaping to Western zones that were harassed by Soviet patrols, some of the most egregious cases were from Austria where over an eight month period troops from the US Third and Sixth armies recorded hundreds of confrontations with Red army soldiers in the border areas. Thus General Patton had given an order that any russkie caught looting or terrorising civilians was to have his head kicked in, he knew the score...

[Stuart Galbraith]

41 minutes ago, bojan said:

Except realistically it was not for the vast majority of the peopel. Look at illiteracy rates, look at % of people with education higher than mandatory school (which was often only 4-5 years), expected length of life, access to the medicine, look at the... basically everything "materialistic". Some of those things were bound to happen no matter what, but a lot of those, especially mass access to the higher education were unlikely. Even corruption, which is considered default of every communist system has  already existed many nasty forms.

Hence you can not look at communism (or what came before it) as strictly black or white dilema, IRL both were much more covered with shades of grey. Somewhere shades were lighter (Yugoslavia post war), sometimes darker (Romania in the '70/80s). But it was never one-sided.

Ah, Berliners, real moral authority on war crimes...

I dont believe I said it was the vast majority of people. After all, the 14000 Officers killed at Katyn and the other sites were but a statistical blip compared to those lost to the Nazi's. Nonetheless they were real enough as individuals, and indicative of a real attempt to socially engineer Poland, and the rest of Eastern Europe when they got the chance. And they did.

Look, I get the point you are making. There is an American author called Bill Bryson whom I admire, whom has written on Britain. He said, and I think he is probably right, that materially there as little difference between Britain as it was up to the 1970's and a Soviet style Republic. He didnt mean about the law, about freedom of speech, he meant materially, there was nothing in it between Britain and say, East Germany. And of course on that level he is right. You only have to look at the 1971 version of 'Get Carter' to see precisely what he is saying.  Britain was every bit as grim as Karl Marx said it was.

Except.... you and I are people that like stating our point of view. Its why we argue so damn much. So how well do you think people that like saying exactly what they want to say are going to florish in a Soviet style Eastern Republic? I dont mean a Yugoslavian one, Im aware thats different. Even Cuba was different. I mean, how well would you tolerate living in East Germany having the stasi dusting your shoes with radiation, so they could track everyone you were chatting to? Recording every phone call? Shitting in your toilet leaving a floater when you were out, just to mess with your head?

So there was a price to be paid for the material advances. And in the end, the material advances didnt keep up with the West anyway.

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

16 minutes ago, Mistral said:

Considering that those getting raped were the mothers, sisters and daughters of “men” who did the massacres in Poland, Yugoslavia or Greece and a million other unknown places I think that as a race they got off extremely lightly at the end of the war.

That Russians and rest did not implement the 100 to 1 quota as championed by the Germans is an unexplained mystery. Unfortunately the play stupid games win stupid prizes rule was not applied and I do blame the Communists for that.

There was a documentary on UK TV some 10 years ago, showing a series of digs on the Eastern Front.One Polish village they do, they were some unexplained graves. They turned out to be German civilians, probably some of those that didnt get a seat on the Wilhelm Gustaff, and ended up expiring at the hand of vengeful poles. Most tellingly, there was a nappy in the grave, indicating the presence of at least one baby. And you may think, well, maybe a dozen individuals, so what? Except inevitably, when you look at how much of Poland they had to walk over, it was inevitably a lot more than that.

Im not judging the Poles, after what they went through, it was inevitable. I just think we need to remember, these things happened.

No, they didnt get off lightly. And frankly I whilst Ill defend pouring it on whilst the war was on,  the vindicativeness after the war didnt really suit the Soviets in the end, because they ended up alienating the East German population, and never got them back. Same across Eastern Europe when you look at it. We happily, didnt make the same mistake. For every civilian they raped, we gave one a job. For every factory they stripped, we put back to work. Yes, there was a large amount of self interest involved, but what the hell, it worked. Their way didnt.

[Martineleca]

34 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

For every civilian they raped, we gave one a job. For every factory they stripped, we put back to work. Yes, there was a large amount of self interest involved, but what the hell, it worked. Their way didnt.

The turbocharged recovery of Germany and Japan after the war was not only due to the growing Soviet threat, but also because it's really hard to keep innovative people down, the unrealistic desire of some vindictive politicians in the US to bring them to a pre-industrial state were thankfully overruled by President Truman and General Marshall. The fact that both countries were great military and industrial powers in 1900, 1940 and again by 1960 was no accident, treating your technologically inclined former enemies with dignity and building them up into some of your strongest allies was the best decision that could be taken in that chaotic time of the early Cold War. 

[rmgill]

3 hours ago, TrustMe said:

When the great powers won WW2 the rational for the USSR having control over Easter Europe was simply "Their better than the Nazi's were". Cold blooded but true  

Better in the same way that syphilis is better than brain cancer. 

[bojan]

Poland and vast majority of Poles survived communism and Soviets, while they would have not survived German rule, neither as nation nor would Poles as a nationality.

 

[Martineleca]

20 minutes ago, bojan said:

Poland and vast majority of Poles survived communism and Soviets, while they would have not survived German rule, neither as nation nor would Poles as a nationality.

Ah yes the Soviet humanitarian endevours and love of all things Polish knew no bounds, which is why they invaded that country three times in a quarter century and robbed the Poles out of their eastern lands...

[Mistral]

2 minutes ago, Martineleca said:

Ah yes the Soviet humanitarian endevours and love of all things Polish knew no bounds, which is why they invaded that country three times in a quarter century and robbed the Poles out of their eastern lands...

Was anything bojan said incorrect? I am confused. Are you saying ww2 Germans were better than anything the Soviets did since 45?

[bojan]

6 minutes ago, Mistral said:

...Are you saying ww2 Germans were better than anything the Soviets did since 45?

Well, for those that licked German ass well enough, like Hungary and Romania did, they possibly were. Well, unless you count Jews and Gypsies in those countries who got short end of stick in that case, but no real eastern European nationalist ever counts those, because his views were not far from German's.

Edited May 4 by bojan

[Martineleca]

22 minutes ago, Mistral said:

Was anything bojan said incorrect? I am confused. Are you saying ww2 Germans were better than anything the Soviets did since 45?

There's an old Polish joke from the 1930s. 

A Polish soldier is asked if Germany and the Soviet Union attacked Poland at the same time, which enemy he wants to fight first.

The soldier answers - Of course Germany, business before pleasure! Make of that what you wish.

[Mistral]

11 minutes ago, Martineleca said:

There's an old Polish joke from the 1930s. 

A Polish soldier is asked if Germany and the Soviet Union attacked Poland at the same time, which enemy he wants to fight first.

The soldier answers - Of course Germany, business before pleasure! Make of that what you wish.

So which of the two is worse, it’s not a hard question I hope.

[Martineleca]

9 minutes ago, Mistral said:

So which of the two is worse, it’s not a hard question I hope.

[Mistral]

5 hours ago, Martineleca said:

It’s not a difficult question to answer with your own words. It’s can be either a yes or a no.

Oh because original poster of that has no idea, syphilis is CURABLE while brain cancer not so much.  Talk about failing on using a parable…

He literally said Communism is but a flu, and you agreed…

[Martineleca]

2 hours ago, Mistral said:

Oh because original poster of that has no idea, syphilis is CURABLE while brain cancer not so much.

Considering the extreme proliferation of STDs among the vatnik horde that they generously shared with the locals wherever they set foot the connection is appropriate, though you failed to take the hint. Rather than moralising to me and clutching pearls, you'd best first check yourself passionately defending an ideology that directly caused the deaths of 20 million people just in Europe.

Edited May 5 by Martineleca

[Mistral]

At least Stuart got a chance to peak in the mind of some of these specimens from Eastern Europe. That’s a positive I guess.

 

[Martineleca]

1 hour ago, Mistral said:

At least Stuart got a chance to peak in the mind of some of these specimens from Eastern Europe. That’s a positive I guess.

And here's another Polish joke to brighten your day, it was later adopted by the Czechs as well. 

- The only thing worse than German occupation, is Soviet liberation.

 

[Martineleca]

16 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

I think the worst you can say about Pre WW2 Eastern Europe, 'it was a lot better than what replaced it'. Which isnt much, but was frankly all they needed.

Before the Soviets plundered their way through Eastern Europe, Zhukov alone was estimated to have made off with 19 traincars of art, gold and expensive furniture, the region was indeed slowly catching up to living standards in Western Europe. One eye opening statistic is that it took 'till 1981 for there to be as many automobiles registered in my country as there were in 1944, so even ignoring all other injustices a four decade gap opened between East and West just in car ownership. Mind you things were relatively "better" here, people in Poland and Romania were starving while being among the world's biggest agricultural producers. 

[Stuart Galbraith]

2 hours ago, Mistral said:

At least Stuart got a chance to peak in the mind of some of these specimens from Eastern Europe. That’s a positive I guess.

 

Meaning?

[Martineleca]

1 hour ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Meaning?

You're not being open minded enough Stuart! Here we have a guy from an island that quite unreasonably raged against comparatively lenient British rule, only to end up with just half of it and presently subsisting on being the piggy bank of russian oligarchs... calling Eastern Europeans "specimens", this is richer than Elon Musk. 😅

[seahawk]

17 hours ago, Mistral said:

Considering that those getting raped were the mothers, sisters and daughters of “men” who did the massacres in Poland, Yugoslavia or Greece and a million other unknown places I think that as a race they got off extremely lightly at the end of the war.

That Russians and rest did not implement the 100 to 1 quota as championed by the Germans is an unexplained mystery. Unfortunately the play stupid games win stupid prizes rule was not applied and I do blame the Communists for that.

Without any doubt, if one nation deserved to be victims of a genocide, it is the Germans.

And sadly they have not changed, as they are again supporting Nazism in the Ukraine.

[TrustMe]

45 minutes ago, seahawk said:

Without any doubt, if one nation deserved to be victims of a genocide, it is the Germans.

And sadly they have not changed, as they are again supporting Nazism in the Ukraine.

If German troops enter Ukraine and move eastwards then Putin can say "It's the Germans again" and there will be all pro-Russian evil Nazi's propaganda again just like during WW2. 

[Martineleca]

2 hours ago, seahawk said:

And sadly they have not changed, as they are again supporting Nazism in the Ukraine.

Yeah those damned Vichy French too and the Fascist Italians, what the Finns and Romanians are now getting involved? Crap, run and hide the Barbarossa coalition is back together!

Edited May 5 by Martineleca

[bd1]

21 hours ago, bojan said:

My grandfather also spent time in jail under communists for "being too critical of them". Personal stories are personal stories, and if there was real extermination intention post 1945 - population grow in eastern Europe would be way less than it was historically.

You are also behaving like every country in eastern Europe was functional democracy before communists came, and no, it was not, with partial exception of Czechoslovakia every other country was a dictatorship that has brutally suppressed undesirables, no matter if the were racial, national or political, including killing them when convenient.

bojan, in Estonia, the 1929-32 economic crisis brought forward  Vapsid-movement, somewhat proto-fascist war veterans with their new constitution project that gave almost all authority to elected president, because too-loose parliamentary democratic system had so many little parties etc. that there were dozens of minority etc. goverment béfore that. 

However, that Konstantin Päts, the basicly founder of Est. Republic in 1918, with  the assistance of  commander of army, and with the consent of all other parties (incl. socialists), took power , forced that constitution , dissolved parliament and ruled with very soft authocratic hand till 1940. (  some leaders of the Vapsid were sent to a small island community for 2-3 years, one leader of the Vapsid escaped to Luxembourg , where he either jumped out of window or was thrown out , in that case it being the only known political murder in our history)

in 1938, celebrating the 20th anniversary of independence, the communists , who were jailed in 1924 coup attempt, were released under general amnesty, which did not turn out to be a good idea. 

there was official nation-building campaigns, like changing foreign-sounding last names to estonian-sounding ones etc.,  but i would not describe the interwar Estonian Republic  never in such terms as you do. 

of minorities, germans, jews, russians, swedes got  cultural autonomy rights ( own social-legal-religious-educational affairs within constitution), but only germans and jews started their own organisations, rest apparently did not see the need for it.   that law, from 1925, was iirc most liberal in europe, and AFAIK it was the first jewish cultural autonomy in the world. 

 

oh, and living expectancy etc. did not reach the 1939 standards until 1960 , though numbers of country doctors  etc. did increase.

my point is not to start off another pointless war of words that last for weeks over multiple threads, but at least in our case , i  do think you are bit off.  

 

edit - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaps_Movement

Edited May 5 by bd1

[Stuart Galbraith]

Looks like NATO will have to start preparing for combating terrorism, as well as high intensity  conflict.

Time to start dusting off the Suvorov.....

Edited May 5 by Stuart Galbraith