NATO return to Cold War force structure

[Martineleca]

6 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

After all, the US Marines seem to manage ok. So for that matter does the 101st Airborne, because they have their firepower delivered via other means.

Para troops have always been unique as they are dependent on how much heavy equipment available planes can drop into battle with them, for the USMC I think they just gave up on the idea of joint mechanised operations with the Army like the ones they had in Korea or the Gulf. They've chosen the path of becoming a light combat force striking at enemy weak spots or remote areas that would still be obliged to retreat when faced with an actual enemy armoured formation, wonder what that'll do to their tough guy image, sincerely hope the British military isn't considering following this "example".

[Mike1158]

Not as toothless as that.  They will be able to conduct ambush type operations and they will be able to embarrass a sizeable mech force when on terrain of their own choosing.

[Josh]

USMC mechanized formations alway relied on huge amounts of equipment on pre positioned ships and a lot of preparation time. The only actual armor deployed to the Pacific for example were single platoons of M1s and a bunch of sitting duck pre positioned ships ships in Diego. If your enemy cannot stop you from assembling a MEB, I submit you probably won your war already, wherever it is.

More rapid deployment and dispersal is a practical way of attempting to staying relevant rather than truly just being a second army that arrives along the same time frame.

[kokovi]

Germany has now budgeted funds to purchase 272 Luchs 2 recce vehicles + has options for another 102. In the current German army organization that is enough for 11 recce bataillons + options for another four bataillons. There have been news recently that there are plans to order 600+ Skyranger air defence vehicles already this year, so it seems at some point in the near future we will see a huge increase of the army.

[Martineleca]

9 hours ago, kokovi said:

Germany has now budgeted funds to purchase 272 Luchs 2 recce vehicles + has options for another 102. In the current German army organization that is enough for 11 recce bataillons + options for another four bataillons. There have been news recently that there are plans to order 600+ Skyranger air defence vehicles already this year, so it seems at some point in the near future we will see a huge increase of the army.

The German military currently has 7 Panzer battalions with ~300 tanks, if recon-support vehicles for a full 11 battalions are ordered now and 4 more added later it would translate to a force of ~1000 active tanks in 22 battalions. This should break any faint delusions for a let off in political pressure for rearmament and that plans for a massive expansion of mechanised forces will indeed be carried out in full with the Leopard 3, rather than wait another decade for MGCS...

[seahawk]

Mittlere and leichte Kräfte will also get recce components. 

[bojan]

20 hours ago, seahawk said:

But drones increase the reaction time, because they provide early warning and a much better situational awareness. 

I am talking about attack drones, not recce ones.

Recce drones are absolute must have at every level. Attack ones are something that will complement, but not replace other kinds of firepower.

[seahawk]

2 hours ago, bojan said:

I am talking about attack drones, not recce ones.

Recce drones are absolute must have at every level. Attack ones are something that will complement, but not replace other kinds of firepower.

But they are impossible to separate. The attack drone needs the recce drone and the recce drone is what changed the battlefield. The attack drones  are man-in-the-loop AT/HE weapons with small warheads.  If you could use smart artillery ammunition against the enemy of hellfire the armoured vehicles from miles away, you would do that. 

[Martineleca]

19 hours ago, seahawk said:

Mittlere and leichte Kräfte will also get recce components. 

That's true, though all the existing units already operate the Fennek the oldest examples of which are only ~20 years old, it in turn replaced the original Luchs that served for four decades, so it's likely both machines will operate together for a very long time and it won't affect force expansion, though I expect newly raised Panzer brigades will be the first to receive Luchs 2.

[seahawk]

No 80 will get an A2 up-date to keep them viable to 2030, but when Fuchs 2 arrives, Fennek will be withdrawn. 

[Martineleca]

10 hours ago, seahawk said:

No 80 will get an A2 up-date to keep them viable to 2030, but when Fuchs 2 arrives, Fennek will be withdrawn. 

Interesting that the former West German Bundeswehr made do with just 400 Luchs vehicles across 38 brigades, granted some of its responsibilities were shared with actual tanks and Fuchs APCs in the former armored reconnaissance battalions that have been replaced with the much lighter modern recon battalion, how many Fenneks is this unit usually made up of?

[seahawk]

5 companies and about 460 soldiers 

1. Company: HQ and supply

2. Company: Recce company with  6 Platoons with 4 Fenneks each. 

3. light recce company

4. technical Recce: drones, radar,...

5. training and support 

[Martineleca]

6 hours ago, seahawk said:

5 companies and about 460 soldiers 

1. Company: HQ and supply

2. Company: Recce company with  6 Platoons with 4 Fenneks each. 

3. light recce company

4. technical Recce: drones, radar,...

5. training and support 

In the West German example 8 Luchs were part of the staff company and another 8 in a recon unit that provided force reconnaissance for the entire brigade and not just each individual mech battalion, you think with a renewed emphasis on heavier formations it could go back to the old structure?

[seahawk]

As the current structure is quite fresh, I do not think so. 

[bojan]

IMO, at a current day brigades need a Recce Bn, and each Bn of other sort (Mech, inf, etc) would benefit quite a bit from a dedicated Recce Co, or Plt at least.

Recce capabilities have to be expanded a lot, probably more than anything else, and return to CW org is not a good idea, that period formations can not cover all the ways recce can be done today.

[Josh]

The U.S. is dramatically changing its infantry brigade team recce elements, though unfortunately it is only one company per brigade team. But the updated formations do seem quite effective in terms of organization. Multiple drone types at different org levels, including long range loitering munitions, along with their own direct fire AT teams and mortars.

[Martineleca]

2 hours ago, seahawk said:

As the current structure is quite fresh, I do not think so. 

That's my point, it probably didn't take into account that there may at some point be a lot more Leopards, Pumas and Boxers in the force mix than was apparent even as late as this past June. 24 dedicated recon vehicles for a single modern Panzergrenadier brigade of 200 AFVs seems like overkill compared to 52 for an entire division with some 800 AFVs as was structured in the past...

[bojan]

19 hours ago, Josh said:

...though unfortunately it is only one company per brigade team...

That is what we had in '80s, each Bde had Recce Co, and that is (IMO) way too little for today reality.

Because all recce tasks you had in the '80s are still there and you got bunch more. Yes, drones can partially replace some previous recce tasks, but big part of the recce co is also establishing if terrain is suitable for other units using it, which can not be done with drones, only by actually being on the spot.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Route Recce.

[Martineleca]

8 hours ago, bojan said:

That is what we had in '80s, each Bde had Recce Co, and that is (IMO) way too little for today reality.

But isn't it also true even the most basic modern AFV is still bristling with all sorts of electronics and observation equipment that few could have expected before, for instance the Boxer Jackal variant that may supplant one of the Puma battalions in mech brigades has the mobility and firepower to greatly enhance the force recon mission that the new Luchs need not undertake entirely alone in the future.

[Martineleca]

Back to conscription - A difficult path for the Bundeswehr

https://tdhj.org/blog/post/conscription-bundeswehr/

"New capability goals mean a personnel increase to approximately 460,000 soldiers, consisting of active troops (200,000) and reserves (260,000), the procurement of materials, weapon systems and equipment, an increase in defence spending and the expansion of industrial capacities in the defence sector."

- This would bring it very close to the pre-unification maximum of 495,000 troops, though I can't seem to find a ratio of professionals to conscripts from back then...

[kokovi]

On 10/21/2025 at 7:18 PM, Martineleca said:

 

- This would bring it very close to the pre-unification maximum of 495,000 troops, though I can't seem to find a ratio of professionals to conscripts from back then...

No, it would not do that. That number was the peace time strength which was planned to be increased to ca. 1.15 million in something like 48 hours of mobilization. The 460k is the new mobilization strength - 260k active force plus 200k reserve troops.

[Martineleca]

2 hours ago, kokovi said:

The 460k is the new mobilization strength - 260k active force plus 200k reserve troops.

Most countries rarely lump the two categories together, If it's meant as a semi-active force along the lines of the US Army National Guard with organised reserve formations that have dedicated equipment and assemble to train as a unit at least once a month it could be an effective stopgap until a new national service system is finally set up.

[kokovi]

7 hours ago, Martineleca said:

Most countries rarely lump the two categories together, If it's meant as a semi-active force along the lines of the US Army National Guard with organised reserve formations that have dedicated equipment and assemble to train as a unit at least once a month it could be an effective stopgap until a new national service system is finally set up.

I guess it will work similarly to the system in the Cold War. In case of mobilization, the conscripts in the force get sent home or put into training units and are replaced by the fully trained ones from the year before which will also fill the inactive cadre units together with the reserve NCOs and officers.

Inactive units will probably compromise security forces, logistics, medical units etc. which are required to set the active army into motion towards the theatres in Eastern Europe and to keep the flow of material and replacement personnel running in Germany while receiving and caring for the casualties coming back.

I have no idea about the actual plans, but I would expect that MP units, engineering and everything belonging to the medium forces would get activated first to set everything into motion.

Edited October 23, 2025 by kokovi

[Martineleca]

16 hours ago, kokovi said:

I guess it will work similarly to the system in the Cold War. In case of mobilization, the conscripts in the force get sent home or put into training units and are replaced by the fully trained ones from the year before which will also fill the inactive cadre units together with the reserve NCOs and officers.

But if we're talking about a 40 000 to 50 000 draftee intake once or twice every year that 200 000 reserve goal will be surpassed quite rapidly, a lot is still unclear. For instance the roughly 400 Leopard 2 A6/7/8 that will remain in Bundeswehr stocks would require a trained pool of loaders to still be maintained long after Leopard 3 with a reduced crew has become the new mainstay.