NATO return to Cold War force structure

[Roman Alymov]

Just now, urbanoid said:

So it looks like they've been having problems for quite some time. 

Well, fuck the talking heads and the horses they rode in on, as far as I'm concerned. Myself I haven't turned the TV on for a decade or so, probably more. 

Yes, TV is really in trouble in Russia, especially when it comes to information programs. Now even officials acknowlege Telegram is the main source of news for Russians 

11.03.2025, 11:19
Peskov: Telegram has become the main source of information for Russians
Telegram has become the main source of information in Russia. Russians will first learn the news from this messenger, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said.

"What sources did we learn about drones from today? We didn't run to turn on the TV — we grabbed our phones and turned on Telegram. And Telegram is the main source of information in our country," the Russian president's press secretary said at the Modern Media conference at the Higher School of Economics (quoted by TASS).

According to Mr. Peskov, the system of perception of information flows is currently changing. Песков: Telegram стал главным источником информации для россиян – Коммерсантъ

[Martineleca]

1 hour ago, Roman Alymov said:

Yes, TV is really in trouble in Russia, especially when it comes to information programs. Now even officials acknowlege Telegram is the main source of news for Russians 

Most declining news channels all over the world have only themselves to blame, for the last thirty years or so they have been overly concerned displaying the political leaning of the network owners rather than reporting straight with limited bias...

[bojan]

55 minutes ago, Martineleca said:

Most declining news channels all over the world have only themselves to blame, for the last thirty years or so they have been overly concerned displaying the political leaning of the network owners rather than reporting straight with limited bias...

Been that way forever, in the last 25-30 years it only became bloody obvious to at least some people due the availability of other sources of information.

[Stefan Kotsch]

However, I also see the effect that factual information going under in the 'information tsunami' of self-proclaimed social media experts. The result: More and more people don't believe anything anymore. You don't believe anyone anymore. Nothing is checked.

[Roman Alymov]

2 hours ago, Stefan Kotsch said:

However, I also see the effect that factual information going under in the 'information tsunami' of self-proclaimed social media experts. The result: More and more people don't believe anything anymore. You don't believe anyone anymore. Nothing is checked.

   What factual information? CNN, the leading Western source of what was believed to be "factual information", was labeled "fake news" by no lesser person then POTUS. And there were no " self-proclaimed social media experts" there....

[Stefan Kotsch]

3 minutes ago, Roman Alymov said:

 What factual information?

I mean that. This is also the policy of the Kremlin. Flood all the facts with information garbage. So that the Russians remain passive due to  disorientation.

[Roman Alymov]

21 minutes ago, Stefan Kotsch said:

I mean that. This is also the policy of the Kremlin. 

I'm sorry but in what way CNN (and other simmilar WESTERN news agencies) flooding the world with fake news is "policy of the Kremlin"? 

23 minutes ago, Stefan Kotsch said:

So that the Russians remain passive due to  disorientation.

Russians (those who cares to ask for factial information, not just entertainment) are in much better position to tell facts from fakes, following hard-learned experience of decades of being exposed to both Western and local propaganda. Westerners, as it seems to me, mostly lack this immunity, unfortumatelly....

[Martineleca]

14 hours ago, Stefan Kotsch said:

However, I also see the effect that factual information going under in the 'information tsunami' of self-proclaimed social media experts. The result: More and more people don't believe anything anymore. You don't believe anyone anymore. Nothing is checked.

I think conventional media started losing credibility with the public as far back as the war in Vietnam, the Tet Offensive which by any objective measure was a great victory with the disintegrated communist army temporarily forced off the field that should have been followed up by a quick and decisive offensive driving up to Hanoi was instead presented in real time as a loss by the press. This influenced politicians to halt any such plans and the momentum was lost, years later even as the US military exited the region those same news networks made sure to target what little support was sent to South Vietnam as evil as the whole American presence had been, eventually resulting in the collapse of that country and an appalling level of crimes against humanity commited both there and in neighbouring Cambodia, they used the same playbook to diminish support for Imperial Iran as well. But when it came time to assess the role Western media had played in the betrayal of tens of millions relatively free people especially women in the latter case they were nowhere to be found, at most would make the excuse that it was never their intention for things to turn out so horribly...

[Roman Alymov]

Meanwhile, another Soviet propaganda story from the days of Cold War turned out to be true

[Rick]

46 minutes ago, Martineleca said:

I think conventional media started losing credibility with the public as far back as the war in Vietnam, the Tet Offensive which by any objective measure was a great victory with the disintegrated communist army temporarily forced off the field that should have been followed up by a quick and decisive offensive driving up to Hanoi was instead presented in real time as a loss by the press. This influenced politicians to halt any such plans and the momentum was lost, years later even as the US military exited the region those same news networks made sure to target what little support was sent to South Vietnam as evil as the whole American presence had been, eventually resulting in the collapse of that country and an appalling level of crimes against humanity commited both there and in neighbouring Cambodia, they used the same playbook to diminish support for Imperial Iran as well. But when it came time to assess the role Western media had played in the betrayal of tens of millions relatively free people especially women in the latter case they were nowhere to be found, at most would make the excuse that it was never their intention for things to turn out so horribly...

Agree.

[Martineleca]

Belgium could end a decade without tanks by entering into the European MGCS program

https://armyrecognition.com/news/army-news/2025/belgium-could-end-a-decade-without-tanks-by-entering-into-the-european-mgcs-program

"Therefore, Belgium's potential participation in the MGCS program would require investments in personnel, maintenance infrastructure, and training, alongside negotiations on technology transfer and industrial benefits. For the Belgian Army, joining the MGCS could indicate a long-term commitment to restoring armored capabilities and strengthening its role in European defense."

[Stuart Galbraith]

23 hours ago, Martineleca said:

I think conventional media started losing credibility with the public as far back as the war in Vietnam, the Tet Offensive which by any objective measure was a great victory with the disintegrated communist army temporarily forced off the field that should have been followed up by a quick and decisive offensive driving up to Hanoi was instead presented in real time as a loss by the press. This influenced politicians to halt any such plans and the momentum was lost, years later even as the US military exited the region those same news networks made sure to target what little support was sent to South Vietnam as evil as the whole American presence had been, eventually resulting in the collapse of that country and an appalling level of crimes against humanity commited both there and in neighbouring Cambodia, they used the same playbook to diminish support for Imperial Iran as well. But when it came time to assess the role Western media had played in the betrayal of tens of millions relatively free people especially women in the latter case they were nowhere to be found, at most would make the excuse that it was never their intention for things to turn out so horribly...

Thats only part of the story. It wasnt the media that lost Tet. It was arguably the US Publics faith in the US Army, not least Westmoreland, and the US Government.

The US Army had been saying for months how much more secure things have got. We have turned a corner they said. The commies are on the run they said. Just a few more thousand troops and then we will be really secure! And then Tet happened, and yes they wiped out the VC its perfectly true. But it was entirely contradictory to the narrative the US Army had been briefing for months, so nobody believed them anymore. Sure, the media got it in the neck for printing an alternative narrative, but who had been playing them briefing victory around the corner messages?

Truth be told, there has been a history since the end of WW2 of American politicians (yes and Generals) lying to the US public to get the results they wanted. Its easy to blame the media for this. They are the ones that (such as in the case of the Pentagon papers) call the lying bastards to account, so naturally they are going to upset someone if they are doing their job.

 

[Martineleca]

5 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Truth be told, there has been a history since the end of WW2 of American politicians (yes and Generals) lying to the US public to get the results they wanted. Its easy to blame the media for this. They are the ones that (such as in the case of the Pentagon papers) call the lying bastards to account, so naturally they are going to upset someone if they are doing their job.

While these failings may be true they pale in comparison to the mass death and virtual enslavement visited upon many peoples across the world by our enemies every time they sense weakness, Chile and South Korea are first world countries today in part due to the West backing up their conservative goverments through very dangerous times. South Vietnam, Cuba, Iran and more recently Venezuela too would have come out far ahead had their present backward regimes not come to power, we must not fall into the trap of ever seeking moral perfection especially when the only realistc alternative is domination by Moscow or Beijing...

[Stuart Galbraith]

South Korea was less Conservative than Despotic. There wasnt really that much to choose between Syngman Rhee and Kim Il Sung, but the difference was the former was our Joe, and the potential was there for the future. And so it proved. Similarly with Pinochet, he wasnt Conservative, he was a Fascist. Im still far from convinced Allende was going to lead Chile into Communism, anymore than any of the other interventions of the US in South America, which frequently were to preserve the access of Chiquita Banana than it was human rights.

The point is, the media are necessary. We mock them and vilify them at our peril, because as soon as they go, Democracy goes with them. No wonder so many despots end up attacking the media first.

[Martineleca]

1 hour ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

There wasn't really that much to choose between Syngman Rhee and Kim Il Sung, but the difference was the former was our Joe, and the potential was there for the future.

That's the point though, the promise of a brighter future is everything to people who hadn't tasted a drop of freedom in their lives, however you would like to describe these admittedly flawed Western-friendly regimes fact is both Chile and South Korea eventually moved to hold free elections, had they too been gobbled up today they would be just like Cuba or North Korea and our home cinema systems would be much the worse for it 

Edited March 25 by Martineleca

[seahawk]

There is one main task at the moment: Build an alternative to NATO command structure, then work with all European partners on capabilities needed and who can provide what. How will war go without the US? Suddenly North Sea ports on the continent look a lot less important than railways in France, Italy and Slovenia.

As key logistic hubs, Belgium and Netherlands are loosing importance, while Slovenia, France and Southern Germany suddenly become very important for logistics. Another hugely important country is now Denmark.

So imho Belgium does not need a tiny number of tanks, they should buy wheeled forces, engineers and air defences that can help defend Denmark and move there quickly.

[JWB]

In the EU, the ReArm Europe plan has been presented, which involves mobilizing over €800 billion to strengthen security and support Ukraine, according to European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen.

The rearmament plan for Europe includes:
- Expanding state defense funding;
- Launching a new defense fund;
- Utilizing the EU budget;
- Mobilizing private capital.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/sv/statement_25_673

[TrustMe]

18 minutes ago, JWB said:

In the EU, the ReArm Europe plan has been presented, which involves mobilizing over €800 billion to strengthen security and support Ukraine, according to European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen.

The rearmament plan for Europe includes:
- Expanding state defense funding;
- Launching a new defense fund;
- Utilizing the EU budget;
- Mobilizing private capital.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/sv/statement_25_673

 

It will never happend. There's to much duplication of effort and rival countries wanting to persue helping there own industries from rival countries for it to work.

[bojan]

2 hours ago, Martineleca said:

... Chile...

...first world...

Joke thread is in FFZ.

[Martineleca]

5 hours ago, bojan said:

Joke thread is in FFZ.

How would you care to describe it, from what I've seen it's a lot like Oregon or California only with more devastating earthquakes, fewer homeless and gangs infesting the urban areas though...

[bojan]

45 minutes ago, Martineleca said:

...from what I've seen it's a lot like Oregon or California only with more devastating earthquakes, fewer homeless and gangs infesting the urban areas though...

And crushing poverty in rural areas that would make even poorest parts of Balkans look like French Riviera.

[urbanoid]

3 minutes ago, bojan said:

And crushing poverty in rural areas that would make even poorest parts of Balkans look like French Riviera.

I've seen what looked like crushing poverty in Albanian countryside, hard to believe that Chile would be anywhere near that.

[bojan]

Never visited real rural Albania but this is pretty hard to match, it is Gypsy shanty town level, and very poor one...

[urbanoid]

7 minutes ago, bojan said:

Never visited real rural Albania but this is pretty hard to match:

Much of it was ok, but some areas... you drive, drive, getting the Wrong Turn/The Hills Have Eyes vibes, the paved road ends and you have to go back, as continuing would make you lose suspension within first 50 meters. 

What you posted looks like one of these, not exactly a 'rural' issue:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campamento_(Chile)

[Stuart Galbraith]

8 hours ago, urbanoid said:

Much of it was ok, but some areas... you drive, drive, getting the Wrong Turn/The Hills Have Eyes vibes, the paved road ends and you have to go back, as continuing would make you lose suspension within first 50 meters. 

What you posted looks like one of these, not exactly a 'rural' issue:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campamento_(Chile)

There are still places in the Cotswolds like that.