NATO return to Cold War force structure

[Stuart Galbraith]

2 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

Bit of a difference between claiming exclusivity on your product, and telling the Fr*nch "nope, you specifically ain't getting THAADs".

Been quite a few dumb American presidents. I don't remember one that actively blocked weapons specifically to Europe in the last couple decades.

Other than the ones reluctant to supply Ukraine in their 8 years of war you mean? That could be any of us, particularly  if it gets in the way of his relationship with Putin. It's the reason why Europe needs to start becoming self sufficient.

[Martineleca]

1 hour ago, Josh said:

Trump was never shy about weapons sales. He is fine with selling things to anyone; he’s a businessman. Give him Greenland and he’d probably even stay in NATO.

I remember when he basically inquired Denmark how much they'd be willing to sell Greenland for, even offering Puerto Rico as collateral, at the time such a deal was only half-jokingly described as a trade of uranium for garbage. 😅

[Martineleca]

23 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

This has the potential to get old, very very quickly.

Guess not, seriously though I think Trump will strike up a good relationship with PM Starmer, he already has an established connection with President Macron, his common German roots with Chancellor Scholz will hopefully count for something, not being Merkel ought to be positive enough for anyone.

[Stuart Galbraith]

When I say 'old', I mean its going to look a bad idea if he decided to pull all his troops out of Europe.

As for Starmer, it probably didnt make the papers anywhere else, but the Trump campaign were exercised by Labour members going to the US and helping the Harris campaign. Completely their own decision and with no Government support, but the Trump campaigned it was the radical Labour Government that had sent them. So no, I don think we are going to have a close relationship. Unless Trump suddenly ponies up on that trade deal he offered us in his last term, and frankly I dont see it.

People are looking for positives here. Basically the only way out of this is 'Europe first', and that includes Britain as well.  There is likely going to be a European war at some point after the Ukrainian one. America just signed the cheque for one, and we better start arming up for it.

[ink]

Another interesting read re: Polish-Ukrainian relations.

https://notesfrompoland.com/2024/11/06/zelensky-wants-to-drag-poland-into-war-with-russia-says-polish-deputy-pm/

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

Americans accused Churchill of doing the same. Of course they didnt make the mental leap, the Americans were going to be dragged in sooner or later anyway. So most like will Poland, when they finally recognise the strategic failure of Russia on its two flanks.

[Martineleca]

1 hour ago, ink said:

Another interesting read re: Polish-Ukrainian relations.

It must be remembered that the comparatively minor squabbles between the two nations compared to the threat coming from their east led to Ukraine being conquered by the bolsheviks and Poland having its besieged capital city saved only by a miracle, all of this happened over a century ago however the lesson that neighbors need to stick together is just as valid today...

[urbanoid]

8 hours ago, Martineleca said:

It must be remembered that the comparatively minor squabbles between the two nations compared to the threat coming from their east led to Ukraine being conquered by the bolsheviks and Poland having its besieged capital city saved only by a miracle, all of this happened over a century ago however the lesson that neighbors need to stick together is just as valid today...

Calling it 'a miracle' was an idea of those opposed to Piłsudski and his political camp, to minimize the public perception of his actual contribution to the planning of the battle. 

What you're talking about was less about 'minor squabbles' and more about Poland's inability as a country and a society to carry on with the war (which basically started right after WW1, which was utterly devastating to Polish lands, materially and population-wise), the bolsheviks had their own worries too, with the still ongoing civil war, hence the peace after the Warsaw battle.  

[Martineleca]

13 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

As for Starmer, it probably didnt make the papers anywhere else, but the Trump campaign were exercised by Labour members going to the US and helping the Harris campaign.

One of the Trump's virtues that people rarely give him credit for is his forgiving nature, his justice department didn't pursue Clinton for mishandling loads of classified information, he also appears set to pardon Biden's son and spare him the reputational damage of doing it himself, certainly maintaining positive relations between the Five Eyes countries supersedes any political considerations of their respective leaders.

[Rick]

Two historical curiosity questions. I assume the N.A.T.O. Cold War infantry were to be transported by I.F.V.s and A.P.C.'s with reserve infantry formations being transported by A.P.C.s  and trucks? Not counting airborne infantry.

At the infantry squad level, was there a dedicated anti-tank weapon or where those infantrymen issued anti tank rockets as rounds of ammunition?

[bojan]

It depended on the army. Before popularization of M72 LAW a lot of countries relied on rifle-grenades on section level, with  multi-shpt AT weapons (Super Bazooka etc) being Plt or even Co level asset. Some however included multi-shot AT weapons at section level (Germany with PzF 44 Lanze).

There was no unified section/plt/co level org among NATO, some followed US or British org, some were inspired by US or other orgs, but nothing was really standardized.

Transport depended on unit types, some countries had quite large light infantry formations due the geography, like Italy that had numerous alpine infantry formations.

[Martineleca]

13 hours ago, urbanoid said:

Calling it 'a miracle' was an idea of those opposed to Piłsudski and his political camp, to minimize the public perception of his actual contribution to the planning of the battle. 

I meant it more that after the retreat from Kyiv all the way to Warsaw few expected them to be able to make a stand, communist unions in France organised rail worker strikes so that the Polish Army couldn't be resupplied, the pitiful state of the German military in 1920 meant that it could hardly resist the encroaching reds either even with help from the Freikorps. Had the bolshevik horde broken through the Vistula, its likely they would have reached the Rhine and Danube before running into any meaningful opposition.

[Stuart Galbraith]

8 minutes ago, Martineleca said:

I meant it more that after the retreat from Kyiv all the way to Warsaw few expected them to be able to make a stand, communist unions in France organised rail worker strikes so that the Polish Army couldn't be resupplied, the pitiful state of the German military in 1920 meant that it could hardly resist the encroaching reds either even with help from the Freikorps. Had the bolshevik horde broken through the Vistula, its likely they would have reached the Rhine and Danube before running into any meaningful opposition.

I remember there was a communist internationale being held at the time. Lenin had a map posted up showing the progress towards 'liberating' the Polish proletariat, and thence a springboard to Germany and beyond. After the Polish counterattack, they suddenly stopped updating the map.

 

[Roman Alymov]

8 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

I remember there was a communist internationale being held at the time. Lenin had a map posted up showing the progress towards 'liberating' the Polish proletariat, and thence a springboard to Germany and beyond. After the Polish counterattack, they suddenly stopped updating the map.

 

No idea where you took this map story, but here is interesting recording of Lenin's speech on Party conference dated September, 1920 (was classified back then) where he is analysing in details the reasons and consequences of Red Army defeat in Poland and specifically pointing out that it was Party's leadership mistake not to stop on Kerzon's line (as it was proposed by British Gov after initial collapse of Polish offencive on Kiev), but trying to "probe by bayonet" the presence of revolutionary moods in Poland. He said, they have failed to understand imperialists would see this not as affair limited to Poland only, but as the attempt to ruin entire post-WWI order by igniting revolution in Germany (that Bolsheviks were actually not even thinking about).

Sorry, it is in Russian and lengthy, but you could use translators to read it Ленин о войне с Польшей и вооруженной поддержке мировой революции (секретно), ч. 1

By the way here is what Lenin said in this speech about his meeting with British workers delegation

"Rote Fane" and many others cannot even imagine that we will help the Sovietization of Poland with our own hand. These people consider themselves communists, but some of them remain nationalists and pacifists. Of course, the Communists who have experienced more, such are the Finnish comrades,  have not left a shadow of these prejudices. I say they didn't, because they went through a longer period of the war. When I had an English workers' delegation and I talked to them that every decent English worker should want the defeat of the English government, they completely misunderstood me. They've made faces that I don't think even the best photo can capture. The truth did not fit into their heads at all that, in the interests of the international revolution, the British workers should want their government to be defeated."

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

It was 'White Eagle Red Star' iirc.

Incidentally British dockers struck with the French. But the British Labour Party turned its back on the Soviets just a few years later, because they figured out they were a gang of thugs and murderers. They were the first Socialist party in Europe to do so.

[Mighty_Zuk]

I don't know if it's discussed in another thread, but this is a good thing.

I think this isn't related to Trump, and more related to Biden's failure to lead in Europe. If under his leadership, European NATO members felt like they could divest from security in the middle of a war, then that's a serious lack of leadership skills.

 

Edited November 7 by Mighty_Zuk

[urbanoid]

6 minutes ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

I don't know if it's discussed in another thread, but this is a good thing.

I think this isn't related to Trump, and more related to Biden's failure to lead in Europe. If under his leadership, European NATO members felt like they could divest from security in the middle of a war, then that's a serious lack of leadership skills.

https://x.com/UKDefJournal/status/1854555087512719868

Why is Poland needed now? It wasn't last month during Scholz's Ukraine summit.

[Mighty_Zuk]

31 minutes ago, urbanoid said:

Why is Poland needed now? It wasn't last month during Scholz's Ukraine summit.

Poland is Europe's most militarily powerful nation, so it makes a lot of sense to include it in every defense forum.

[urbanoid]

1 minute ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

Poland is Europe's most militarily powerful nation, so it makes a lot of sense to include it in every defense forum.

No, it isn't.

Still, last month they had their 'Ukraine summit' without a single Eastern flank NATO member present. 

OTOH, sure, let the talks and negotiations begin, I'll keep my expectations reasonably low though.

[Mighty_Zuk]

9 minutes ago, urbanoid said:

No, it isn't.

Still, last month they had their 'Ukraine summit' without a single Eastern flank NATO member present. 

OTOH, sure, let the talks and negotiations begin, I'll keep my expectations reasonably low though.

I don't consider Turkey to be European.

Any European defense forum that doesn't include Poland is not a serious one.

 

[Stefan Kotsch]

1 hour ago, urbanoid said:

... Poland ...  It wasn't last month during Scholz's Ukraine summit.

This is a disgrace!

[bojan]

1 hour ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

I don't consider Turkey to be European.

In Europe France, UK and Russia have nukes hence are first 3 places.

Quote

Any European defense forum that doesn't include Poland is not a serious one.

One of the few times I agree with you 100%.

[Martineleca]

10 hours ago, Roman Alymov said:

He said, they have failed to understand imperialists would see this not as affair limited to Poland only, but as the attempt to ruin entire post-WWI order by igniting revolution in Germany (that Bolsheviks were actually not even thinking about).

So the establishment of actual soviet states in Bavaria or Hungary by Moscow-aligned psychos Eugen Leviné and Bela Kun is a mere coincidence?

Edited November 8 by Martineleca

[Martineleca]

16 minutes ago, Martineleca said:

 

 

Edited November 8 by Martineleca

[Roman Alymov]

42 minutes ago, Martineleca said:

So the establishment of actual soviet states in Bavaria or Hungary by Moscow-aligned psychos Eugen Leviné and Bela Kun is a mere coincidence?

I would put it another way: it was coincidence that during general rise of socialist revolution moods (and practicies) across most advanced industrial colonial empires of Western Europe (where Socialism was invented and was expected to take power) socialist revolution also win and, more importantly, survived in distant  and relatively backward agrarian Russian Empire, to great surprise of Lenin&Co who just prior to Revolution were living in exile and expecting no return in their lifetime.