The off-ramp for Russia, no longer a Culture War

[R011]

On 10/12/2022 at 2:49 AM, 17thfabn said:

“I can no longer remain in today's Democratic Party that's under the complete control of an elitist cabal of warmongers,”

i.e. People who oppose President Putin's peaceful and fraternal plan to eradicate the Gay Jewish Nazi Satanists infesting the Empire's Kiev governate.

[rmgill]

2 hours ago, R011 said:

i.e. People who oppose President Putin's peaceful and fraternal plan to eradicate the Gay Jewish Nazi Satanists infesting the Empire's Kiev governate.

I think you can point to a number of other things the DNC pushes for war that are aside from the war going on in Ukraine. See also Yemen for example...

[R011]

14 hours ago, rmgill said:

I think you can point to a number of other things the DNC pushes for war that are aside from the war going on in Ukraine. See also Yemen for example...

But Ukraine is the big war going on now that everyone's talking about and she's chosen Putin's side.

[rmgill]

1 hour ago, R011 said:

But Ukraine is the big war going on now that everyone's talking about and she's chosen Putin's side.

One can be un-enthusiastic about a nuclear exchange with Russia without being on Putin's side. The Biden admin read the terrain on this all wrong and continues to give mixed signals. Its almost as if they want war and are positioning themselves to get it. One can in fact be very hawkish on foreign policy without being a warmonger. 
 

it comes down to which school of Foreign Policy one subscribes to.  

Worse it also comes down to how able a government is able to handle the brinksmanship. I think the Biden administration is giving all of the wrong signals that make's war far more likely. 

Edited October 12, 2022 by rmgill

[R011]

40 minutes ago, rmgill said:

One can be un-enthusiastic about a nuclear exchange with Russia without being on Putin's side. The Biden admin read the terrain on this all wrong and continues to give mixed signals. Its almost as if they want war and are positioning themselves to get it. One can in fact be very hawkish on foreign policy without being a warmonger. 
 

it comes down to which school of Foreign Policy one subscribes to.  

Worse it also comes down to how able a government is able to handle the brinksmanship. I think the Biden administration is giving all of the wrong signals that make's war far more likely. 

She's been on Putin's side since before the war.

[rmgill]

22 minutes ago, R011 said:

She's been on Putin's side since before the war.

Can you make that case with some substance? 

[R011]

33 minutes ago, rmgill said:

Can you make that case with some substance? 

I withdraw the claim she was openly pro-Putin before the invasion as I can't find suitable soures at the moment.  She has, however, like Carlson, been a shill for Putin since claiming that Russian censorship and persecution of their media is the same as the US, parroting Russian claims about bioweapons labs, and denounvcing aid to Ukraine.

[DKTanker]

49 minutes ago, R011 said:

I withdraw the claim she was openly pro-Putin before the invasion as I can't find suitable soures at the moment.  She has, however, like Carlson, been a shill for Putin since claiming that Russian censorship and persecution of their media is the same as the US, parroting Russian claims about bioweapons labs, and denounvcing aid to Ukraine.

So in your eyes it's an either or proposition?  Either you whole heartedly and unequivocally support Ukraine forever and a day, or you are a Putin sycophant and desirous of Russia stomping over Europe?

Put that aside for the moment.  What does the off ramp to this war look like?  Is there even an off ramp?

[R011]

37 minutes ago, DKTanker said:

So in your eyes it's an either or proposition?  Either you whole heartedly and unequivocally support Ukraine forever and a day, or you are a Putin sycophant and desirous of Russia stomping over Europe?

 

That's pretty much the case, yeah.  You either supprt Ukraine or you support Russia.  there's not really any middle here.  One can, of course, recognize that Ukraine isn't a perfect place, but that does not give Russia the right to deny their right to exist or to wage a war of aggression.  It's much as Orwell said during WW2, neutrality is objectively pro-fascist because if you hinder one fascisms victims, you help the fascists.  Gabard can't even claim neutrality.

Edited October 12, 2022 by R011

[rmgill]

1 hour ago, R011 said:

That's pretty much the case, yeah.  You either supprt Ukraine or you support Russia.

Serious question. When is Canada deploying it's Armed forces to fight Russia? 
 

1 hour ago, R011 said:

  there's not really any middle here.

Nonsense. Since you're not deploying the Canned Forces to defend Kiev, there clearly is some level of middle ground. That can range from not doing anything to giving some sort of aid to Ukraine. But when the US/Allies failed to live up to the defense agreement that Ukraine met by giving up their nukes, it was pretty much down the drain as "full defense" of Ukraine.  

1 hour ago, R011 said:

  One can, of course, recognize that Ukraine isn't a perfect place, but that does not give Russia the right to deny their right to exist or to wage a war of aggression.  It's much as Orwell said during WW2, neutrality is objectively pro-fascist because if you hinder one fascisms victims, you help the fascists.  Gabard can't even claim neutrality.

That's exceedingly black and white with no nuance which is clearly there due to the lack of Canadian Armed forces parachuting into Kiev. 

[R011]

22 hours ago, rmgill said:

Serious question. When is Canada deploying it's Armed forces to fight Russia? 
 

Nonsense. Since you're not deploying the Canned Forces to defend Kiev, there clearly is some level of middle ground. That can range from not doing anything to giving some sort of aid to Ukraine. But when the US/Allies failed to live up to the defense agreement that Ukraine met by giving up their nukes, it was pretty much down the drain as "full defense" of Ukraine.  

That's exceedingly black and white with no nuance which is clearly there due to the lack of Canadian Armed forces parachuting into Kiev. 

So just abandon Ukraine to Russia because they threaten to use force.  And when China does the same, you can appease them too.  Are you learning Mandarin or Russian so you be useful to your new overlords?

[Sardaukar]

People often mistake politics with culture.

I'd damn gladly take Canadians on my side, ones I have met were very solid soldiers. 

Just don't give them ice hockey sticks  

[rmgill]

2 hours ago, R011 said:

So just abandon Ukraine to Russia because they threaten to use force.  And when China does the same, you can appease them too.  Are you learning Mandarin or Russian so you be useful to your new overlords?

Its a serious question. How far is the west willing to go on this. Europe was out maneuvered. The Biden admin is doing everything to screw up by the numbers. Both are screwing themselves or already did with regards to energy policy. Whats Canada doing for fuel exports? What's Justin Castro doing there? 

When Putin made noise about using nukes, Biden should have made it bloody clear we would destroy all of Russia's naval forces and anything else we could reach from outside their airspace with conventional forces. He did not.

We, the US and UK promised Ukraine thar we'd defend them if the gave up their nukes. They did and we let them be invaded under Obama. The time for resolve would have been then would it not. 
 

How do we put the toothpaste back in the tube? 
 

Whats the offramp? Ukraine has to either give up territory or Russia has to be defeated. Which seems more likely?

Edited October 14, 2022 by rmgill

[R011]

The off ramp is that Russia neds to be fought until they give up.  Anything less justifies their actions and encourages others, particulary China.  This isn't going to be easy or quick and all you're asking for by demanding appeasement now is a Russian victory.

[DKTanker]

...

 

Edited October 14, 2022 by DKTanker

[DKTanker]

1 minute ago, R011 said:

The off ramp is that Russia neds to be fought until they give up.  Anything less justifies their actions and encourages others, particulary China.  This isn't going to be easy or quick and all you're asking for by demanding appeasement now is a Russian victory.

After Ukraine has been bled dry, or vaporized, who will be fighting Russia?

[rmgill]

Obviously the US. A company of British infantry. Some E-3s from Luxembourg and some Poles, Estonians, Latvians and Lituanians. 

[R011]

2 minutes ago, DKTanker said:

After Ukraine has been bled dry, or vaporized, who will be fighting Russia?

Who says they will, besides Putin and his supporters?

[rmgill]

6 minutes ago, R011 said:

The off ramp is that Russia neds to be fought until they give up.  Anything less justifies their actions and encourages others, particulary China.  This isn't going to be easy or quick and all you're asking for by demanding appeasement now is a Russian victory.

What was Canada's policy vis a vis Cuba over the past 50 years? 
 

What's the Canadian energy policy wrt oil and Russia right now? 

[R011]

Just now, rmgill said:

Obviously the US. A company of British infantry. Some E-3s from Luxembourg and some Poles, Estonians, Latvians and Lituanians. 

More than that is already in theatre.  And yes, if Ukraine falls, Poland and the rest are next -especially if Nato decides not to help because of "inevitable" defeat.

[rmgill]

2 minutes ago, R011 said:

Who says they will, besides Putin and his supporters?

Game it out. How does the current path work? How many military aged men does Ukraine have? How many does Russia have? Whats the casualty ratio? 
 

If Putin fails here, what happens to him? Who replaces him? Someone softer or more hardline? 

[R011]

1 minute ago, rmgill said:

What was Canada's policy vis a vis Cuba over the past 50 years? 
 

What's the Canadian energy policy wrt oil and Russia right now? 

Why are you so set on surrender to Russia and encouraging China?

[rmgill]

1 minute ago, R011 said:

More than that is already in theatre.  

Officially as combatants? 

[rmgill]

2 minutes ago, R011 said:

Why are you so set on surrender to Russia and encouraging China?

Make the case for how Russia can be defeated. 

[R011]

Just now, rmgill said:

Game it out. How does the current path work? How many military aged men does Ukraine have? How many does Russia have? Whats the casualty ratio? 
 

If Putin fails here, what happens to him? Who replaces him? Someone softer or more hardline? 

As i'm sure you're aware, manpower is the least vital aspect of modern war.  The most important is the will to continue.  It's why Israel still exists even though outnumbered as conquest is much less motivating than defence of one's home.  The next biggest factor is materiel, and with Western support, Ukraine will outlast Russia in that.