Ed Snowden, appearing in Burning Kiev

[Yama]

19 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Exactly.

We could make a comparison between Robert Hansen and Oleg Penkovsky. One was betraying his country because it was run upon corrupt and immoral practices. The other was doing it so he could make shitloads of money so he could bunga bunga with strippers and coke.

IIRC Hanssen didn't even use all the cash he got from Russians? I think the whole thing was just a giant ego trip for him.

Intelligence seems to attract people with huge egoes. It is often noted how even genuine intelligence sources and defectors often start inventing stories to maintain their importance and sense of power.

[Mighty_Zuk]

11 minutes ago, Yama said:

How's the public reacting to the use of Pegasus (and related software)? Apparently it was used not only to spy on potential extremists, but also mainstream politicians. Few slopes are as slippery as spying.

I think you only read some of the news about this case. Yes, the Israeli police used Pegasus to spy on certain people, but it later became apparent the whistleblower did not properly understand the subject before reporting it.

That is, while the espionage occurred, it only occurred with proper search warrants issued by courts.

This story quickly died down with the conclusion that no wrongdoing occurred. "Calcalist" (news source responsible for the expose) lost some reputation after that.

There are some infractions from time to time, such as companies that hold personal information either selling said information to 3rd parties or not securing it enough. As for mass espionage on Israeli citizens that was proven, I don't think there is such an example.

The Israeli gov't wanted to use mass surveillance to warn citizens of COVID infection, but the method ended up being a compromise in which every citizen had to willingly download an app and turn on location services.

[Stuart Galbraith]

44 minutes ago, Yama said:

IIRC Hanssen didn't even use all the cash he got from Russians? I think the whole thing was just a giant ego trip for him.

Intelligence seems to attract people with huge egoes. It is often noted how even genuine intelligence sources and defectors often start inventing stories to maintain their importance and sense of power.

Yeah, fair one, I've read the same thing. It was seemingly at least in part about proving his own self worth, in an organisation he felt had sidelined him. Not a dissimilar motivation to Ames.

As far as your second paragraph, yes. I've read some recent critical comments about Oleg Gordievsky, although in his case he was trying to get his wife and child out.

[Sardaukar]

Usually, turning to traitor is up to 3 major issues: Money, Sex or Ego.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Conscience can be another. Ok, you can possibly put that under ego. And as we saw with Christopher Boyce or Tolkachev, you can have more than one motivation at a time, ego, conscience and money.

Boyce I've some sympathy for, he stuck around to face his crime. So did Daniel Ellsberg (ego, conscience), though through the Nixon Whitehouse incompetence he got off.

Those I can respect, particularly Ellsberg. He can make a claim to have helped end the Vietnam war. Snowden, when he had a chance to defend his actions by contrast cut and run. If he isn't willing to defend his convictions, to justify them, why should I respect them?

 

[RETAC21]

59 minutes ago, Sardaukar said:

Usually, turning to traitor is up to 3 major issues: Money, Sex or Ego.

Beg to differ, there had been a number of ideological agents which did what they did out of conviction, for example, Richard Sorge or Ryszard Kukliński, which have been more valuable as sources than those that did it for money. See for Dimitry Polyakov (GRU Major General): "He articulated a sense that he had to help us out or the Soviets were going to win the cold war, and he couldn't stand that. He felt we were very naive and we were going to fail."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitri_Polyakov

[sunday]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard

[Sardaukar]

46 minutes ago, RETAC21 said:

Beg to differ, there had been a number of ideological agents which did what they did out of conviction, for example, Richard Sorge or Ryszard Kukliński, which have been more valuable as sources than those that did it for money. See for Dimitry Polyakov (GRU Major General): "He articulated a sense that he had to help us out or the Soviets were going to win the cold war, and he couldn't stand that. He felt we were very naive and we were going to fail."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitri_Polyakov

Yea, you are right. But...it is psychological thing like Ego.

[RETAC21]

3 minutes ago, Sardaukar said:

Yea, you are right. But...it is psychological thing like Ego.

Or religion. In ego you have a personal gratification, but Kuklinsky, Tolkachev and Polyakov were driven by a desire to hurt the Communist regime, not by any desire to massage their ego.

On the other hand, In the 1930s, you have people like Theodor Maly who went voluntarily to his death when others bailed out

[Yama]

3 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Those I can respect, particularly Ellsberg. He can make a claim to have helped end the Vietnam war. Snowden, when he had a chance to defend his actions by contrast cut and run. If he isn't willing to defend his convictions, to justify them, why should I respect them?

But OTOH, Snowden hardly blew the whistle on monetary gain on mind. He was acting on his conscience, just like Penkovsky. So why not give him the same judgement?

I don't think Snowden had high life in Russia in mind as a motivation (and if you remember, Russians were hardly eager to take him in, with Putin publicly advising him to move on). Assange...sure, the guy was egotripping, but again, not really in for the moolah. Also, he wasn't betraying his own nation, just taking advantage of someone else's mess.

[Stuart Galbraith]

20 minutes ago, Yama said:

But OTOH, Snowden hardly blew the whistle on monetary gain on mind. He was acting on his conscience, just like Penkovsky. So why not give him the same judgement?

I don't think Snowden had high life in Russia in mind as a motivation (and if you remember, Russians were hardly eager to take him in, with Putin publicly advising him to move on). Assange...sure, the guy was egotripping, but again, not really in for the moolah. Also, he wasn't betraying his own nation, just taking advantage of someone else's mess.

Because Penkovsky did no harm. Nobody died because of him. In fact, there is good evidence the information he passed on about IRBMs allowed the US to hold off before launching an attack, because they knew there would be time before the Soviets completed them. Which probably saved everybody.

What Snowdon did was a triviality for the vast majority of people. The only people paying attention was the ones it was primarily directed against. And I don't accept letting terrorists know how powerful our surveillance capabilities are was either a public service, or necessary.

If he was so concerned about doing the right thing, he could have waited to be charged, just as Ellsberg did.  He didnt, he ran, just like Philby and Blake.

[Angrybk]

22 hours ago, Sardaukar said:

Yea, you are right. But...it is psychological thing like Ego.

Snowden, Manning, Reality Winner etc weren’t what I would call intelligence agents.  

But I would add that my limited experience with hiring in the US intel world indicates that it’s a pretty bizarre process. I went to a top-ranked grad school known for being an Intel feeder program and graduated with honors; I couldn’t get a call back from any agencies, which people in the know told me was 1) at 30, I was a little old and 2) I had previously worked as a journalist (strictly “top ten laptops for college students” variety). A friend who had the best grades in our program couldn’t get hired because of too much foreign contact (he spent a summer doing a non partisan voter registration mission in Afghanistan). Another friend who had spent their early 20s doing lots of acid got hired immediately because they also had an advanced technology degree (actually they’re a great person and is probably doing quite well). Overall most of the hires were straight laced women in their early 20s because they were easier to clear, or ex military folks. I have a great private sector job so I’m not bitter, but it did seem messed up. 

Edited October 1, 2022 by Angrybk

[Angrybk]

20 hours ago, Yama said:

But OTOH, Snowden hardly blew the whistle on monetary gain on mind. He was acting on his conscience, just like Penkovsky. So why not give him the same judgement?

I don't think Snowden had high life in Russia in mind as a motivation (and if you remember, Russians were hardly eager to take him in, with Putin publicly advising him to move on). Assange...sure, the guy was egotripping, but again, not really in for the moolah. Also, he wasn't betraying his own nation, just taking advantage of someone else's mess.

I would have had a lot more respect for Snowden if he hadn’t moved to Russia. Couldn’t he have worked out Costa Rica or something?

[bojan]

Like Asange in Ecuadorian embassy? There are very few truly independent countries that would have not delivered him sooner or later and his choice was basically Russia or China.

Edited October 1, 2022 by bojan

[BansheeOne]

1 hour ago, Angrybk said:

Snowden, Manning, Reality Winner etc weren’t what I would call intelligence agents.  

But I would add that my limited experience with hiring in the US intel world indicates that it’s a pretty bizarre process. I went to a top-ranked grad school known for being an Intel feeder program and graduated with honors; I couldn’t get a call back from any agencies, which people in the know told me was 1) at 30, I was a little old and 2) I had previously worked as a journalist (strictly “top ten laptops for college students” variety). A friend who had the best grades in our program couldn’t get hired because of too much foreign contact (he spent a summer doing a non partisan voter registration mission in Afghanistan). Another friend who had spent their early 20s doing lots of acid got hired immediately because they also had an advanced technology degree (actually they’re a great person and is probably doing quite well). Overall most of the hires were straight laced women in their early 20s because they were easier to clear, or ex military folks. I have a great private sector job so I’m not bitter, but it did seem messed up. 

Four years ago I applied for a position in cyber defense with German national domestic intelligence. After the written test I got invited to personal evaluation, at the end of which they told me they liked my written test best of all, but the briefing I gave in the second round included too much information, and I pushed the actor playing the unwilling staffer too hard in the simulated motivation talk. The intelligence business sure ain't what it used to be.

[Angrybk]

30 minutes ago, BansheeOne said:

Four years ago I applied for a position in cyber defense with German national domestic intelligence. After the written test I got invited to personal evaluation, at the end of which they told me they liked my written test best of all, but the briefing I gave in the second round included too much information, and I pushed the actor playing the unwilling staffer too hard in the simulated motivation talk. The intelligence business sure ain't what it used to be.

I'm obviously biased but IMHO the best people doing cyber defense nowadays are the private companies, because they're fully open to the necessary combination of ex-military guys and weirdo punk rockers (I'm like sort of in the middle). Lots of jobs there though! What pissed me off about the whole process is that they never considered stuff like "would you rather die than betray your country", etc. 

Edited October 1, 2022 by Angrybk

[Ssnake]

3 hours ago, Angrybk said:

I would have had a lot more respect for Snowden if he hadn’t moved to Russia. Couldn’t he have worked out Costa Rica or something?

He tried to move to Iceland, and the shortest route there from Hong Kong where he was when he broke the story to journalists was via Moscow. The US revoked his passport while he was waiting for a connecting flight in Sheremetvoyo, so effectively the US agencies locked him there, intentional or not.

[Ssnake]

2 hours ago, bojan said:

Like Asange in Ecuadorian embassy? There are very few truly independent countries that would have not delivered him sooner or later and his choice was basically Russia or China.

Except he chose Iceland, just couldn't get there fast enough because he wasted too much time in Hong Kong waiting for the journalists to take his story.

[bojan]

Thanks for clarification. So even worse for "He is a traitor who ran to Russia" crowd.

[Angrybk]

Yeah but applying for Ru citizenship seems pretty sketchy.

[Ssnake]

That was years later when it was clear that he couldn't go anywhere. At some point you have to move on, somehow.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Could have gone home and justified himself to 12 good men and true.

That is if he was convinced he was right of course.

 

[Ssnake]

Except, he wouldn't get a public trial.

[KV7]

17 hours ago, Angrybk said:

Yeah but applying for Ru citizenship seems pretty sketchy.

Why ? It effectively insulates him from deportation or extradition and gives him rights in the country he is stuck in.

[Stuart Galbraith]

1 hour ago, Ssnake said:

Except, he wouldn't get a public trial.

But that's not the same as saying he wouldn't get a FAIR trial. It wouldn't need to be public, he already aired everything he felt he needed to.

It's the same with Asange, either you believe in your convictions, or you dont. If you dont, don't do it. If you do, defend yourself.