India's "Tejas" fighter

[Dawes]

This aircraft has normally received little press coverage. Lately it has been on some newscasts with the update that some foreign countries (Egypt and Indonesia among them) may be interested in acquiring this aircraft. Presumably price is a major selling point.

How does the Tejas compare with (roughly equivalent) contemporaries such as F-16 and TA-50?

 

 

[TrustMe]

17 hours ago, Dawes said:

This aircraft has normally received little press coverage. Lately it has been on some newscasts with the update that some foreign countries (Egypt and Indonesia among them) may be interested in acquiring this aircraft. Presumably price is a major selling point.

How does the Tejas compare with (roughly equivalent) contemporaries such as F-16 and TA-50?

 

 

 

It's had a very troubled development program. Basically it was first mooted in the early 1980's but due to lack of investment and technical problems the project never took off. To give you one way of looking at it, it was designed in the same timeframe as the Gripen, Rafale and Eurofighter yet European manufactures have had hundreds of their jets flying yet in India it's only now just entering service.

One of the main technical problems was it's engine, radar and missile components. India simply couldn't produce their own versions so they bought Israeli and American subcomponents. For example after trying for 35 years to create an engine for it, they basically gave up and bought American. 

The Tejas is one of the smallest / lightest aircraft currently in production with a payload of only 3500kg for fuel drop tanks and weapons.

An Indigenous AESA radar and ARH missiles are indevelopment.

In terms of comparison between the F16 and FA-50 the Korean is a better buy whilist the F16 althouhgh dated is cheap and has a large user base keeping maintenance costs down. I'd go for the F16 any day of the week. There have been rumors over the last couple of years that the Indians wiil by the F16 anyway.

Edited September 25, 2022 by TrustMe

[nitin]

On 9/24/2022 at 11:47 PM, Dawes said:

This aircraft has normally received little press coverage. Lately it has been on some newscasts with the update that some foreign countries (Egypt and Indonesia among them) may be interested in acquiring this aircraft. Presumably price is a major selling point.

How does the Tejas compare with (roughly equivalent) contemporaries such as F-16 and TA-50?

 

 

It's far ahead of the T-50 in terms of payload and weapons available, and is gradually catching up to the F-16 in terms of what it has within it, sensors and what's hanging off of it, ie payload diversity in it's Mk1A variant. What it can't match is the fact the F-16 is a larger platform with more fuel, more range, larger size (better supersonic shaping) and more pylons, more payload. The Tejas is a light fighter. 3500kg carried on, 7 pylons. The Tejas Mk2 however is an out and out F-16 equivalent, 6500kgs and 12 pylons. 

[Sardaukar]

And knowing India's troubled procurement system...will never fly in any numbers. 

[TrustMe]

Probably. To get more thrust for the mk2 variant you'll have to change the engine which will lead to redesigned airframe changes, which will lead to centre of gravity changes, which will lead to fly by wire changes. All in all a big task.

Edited September 26, 2022 by TrustMe

[Daan]

The Mk2 will have a different engine, the GE F414 vs the F404, but even then is still relatively underpowered compared to current and previous F-16 variants.

The reason you do not hear more about this project is that most aviation and military enthusiasts are interested in the latest and greatest technology. Furthermore, India's defense industry does not have the most solid reputation. The Tejas is India's attempt to field an indigenous light fighter to partially replace its large fleet of obsolescent mid CW era aircraft, similar to the Chinese-Pakistani JF-17. When India's large Northern neighbor is producing significant numbers of stealth aircraft with indigenous engines and advanced long-range missiles, such small conventional planes with air frames that would have been cool 45 years ago (F-16A, F/A-18A) are not very exciting. Of course, hanging modern electronics and foreign weapons on these aircraft will provide a modicum of compensation, but the small size brings hard limitations. 

Edited September 27, 2022 by Daan

[Jabberwocky]

Tejas Mk 1/1A are light fighters - in terms of size and weight, they're very close to the Mirage III. Power is substantially greater though with about 35% more thrust than late model Mirage IIIs. Which is unsurprising, given the engines are a couple decades newer.

In terms of avionics and search capabilities, they're about what you'd expect for an aircraft developed in the late 1990s/early 2000s - full fly by wire with digital flight control computers. IAI/Elta developed the radars for the Mk 1 (based on work done on the Lavi in the 1980s) and is also fitting an AESA to the Mk 1A. Plan is for a domestic AESA to go into the fighter in the next few years (don't hold your breath though).

Airframe is reportedly pretty good from a handling and aerodynamics standpoint, although there have been some reports that the aircraft has some nasty habits with gear out at slow speed (which may be why the Indian Navy didn't want anything to do with it).

Development was a real sh*tshow. India's government auditor has been ragging on the programme for more than a decade. The 2015 audit is particularly eye opening (and the planned follow up reports have mysteriously never materialized...).

Problems were found with fatigue cracking on structural members on the development aircraft with just a couple of hundred hours of flight time. There were also fuel and braking system problems. Systems integration also appears to have been a real bugbear - it looks like a lot of the systems were developed in isolation and weren't really designed to fit together (another sign of major mismanagement). There were nearly 9000 engineering changes made on the eight development aircraft, and then nearly 7000 more just to get the first production aircraft up to Initial Operating Condition. Since then, there's been a few thousand more and the Mk 1 still isn't trouble free.

Edited September 27, 2022 by Jabberwocky

[Daan]

The gear issue and structural weaknesses were not the only reasons why the Indian Navy was dismissive of the aircraft. Launching a small and underpowered aircraft from a carrier using a STOBAR set-up simply provides little operational capability.

[Yama]

Tejas originally had very unrealistic empty weight goal 5.5 tons, over 700kg lighter than Gripen A which uses same engine. As I recall, prototypes were up to 1.5 tons overweight. Had that weight goal been reached, then the naval version would have worked as a STOBAR aircraft. But in the final configuration, reportedly it couldn't take off from a carrier with full internal fuel, and two AAM's.

So basically it could just take off, circle the ship and come back.

[nitin]

On 9/26/2022 at 4:19 PM, Sardaukar said:

And knowing India's troubled procurement system...will never fly in any numbers. 

30 Tejas Mk1 single seaters are already in squadron service. Another 2 to be delivered, followed by 8 trainers. The production shifts thereafter to 73 single seater and 10 twin seater Mk1A variants all of which have already been ordered. 

So at the very minimum, 6 squadrons, ie 123 Tejas will be in service. 

Next, the Tejas Mk2 program has also been funded and cleared and is also scheduled for a minimum of 6 squadrons. 

India's troubled procurement is primarily because it has discovered there is no way it can keep importing budget breaking stuff from abroad. So, finally, the focus is on homegrown programs as long as they meet service quality requirements. 

[nitin]

On 9/27/2022 at 7:51 AM, Jabberwocky said:

Tejas Mk 1/1A are light fighters - in terms of size and weight, they're very close to the Mirage III. Power is substantially greater though with about 35% more thrust than late model Mirage IIIs. Which is unsurprising, given the engines are a couple decades newer.

In terms of avionics and search capabilities, they're about what you'd expect for an aircraft developed in the late 1990s/early 2000s - full fly by wire with digital flight control computers. IAI/Elta developed the radars for the Mk 1 (based on work done on the Lavi in the 1980s) and is also fitting an AESA to the Mk 1A. Plan is for a domestic AESA to go into the fighter in the next few years (don't hold your breath though).

Airframe is reportedly pretty good from a handling and aerodynamics standpoint, although there have been some reports that the aircraft has some nasty habits with gear out at slow speed (which may be why the Indian Navy didn't want anything to do with it).

Development was a real sh*tshow. India's government auditor has been ragging on the programme for more than a decade. The 2015 audit is particularly eye opening (and the planned follow up reports have mysteriously never materialized...).

Problems were found with fatigue cracking on structural members on the development aircraft with just a couple of hundred hours of flight time. There were also fuel and braking system problems. Systems integration also appears to have been a real bugbear - it looks like a lot of the systems were developed in isolation and weren't really designed to fit together (another sign of major mismanagement). There were nearly 9000 engineering changes made on the eight development aircraft, and then nearly 7000 more just to get the first production aircraft up to Initial Operating Condition. Since then, there's been a few thousand more and the Mk 1 still isn't trouble free.

 

Development was hard because of the scale of the ambition. Everything or as much as possible was to be done inhouse to avoid the fiasco that ensued post western sanctions. Those challenges have mostly been overcome, except the lack of availability of a local engine. The current GOI is quite tight fisted regarding expenditure and has not cleared a follow on domestic program to fix the issues with the original program. 

Most of the engineering changes were made because the IAF rejoined the program late, many were cynical it would even succeed given the complexity and asked for multiple changes at the nth moment. Bar airframe shaping (which would've led to changes across the board, and were pushed off for the Mk2), most of these changes were incorporated on Mk1, and the remaining on Mk1A. 

Unlike most other aircraft, the Tejas's brake system is also brake by wire. Everything is electric. Similarly it's compact size and high packaging density given it's size mean the fuel lines have to be carefully placed lest they impact other systems if damaged. Also there are multiple systems integration rigs, those weren't the real issue. The Tejas's systems are currently flying on the IAFs Jaguars, Su-30 MKIs and previously on its MiG-27s. As you can discern, that wouldn't have been possible unless the systems were modular and system integration was a challenge the developers had cracked. 

The IAFs "we want this, this way" changes were and are a key issue. They have a users perspective based off a bunch of different platforms they operate and picking figures from each and expecting the Tejas to meet them is unrealistic, but it is what it is. There is also the issue that the lack of interest of prior Govts, trickle feed funding and the staged Tech demo, prototype vehicle, LSP and SP approach also lead to challenges as the program was stalled due to funding issues at the TD, PV stage till FSED (Full Scale Engg Devpt) was cleared, quite late in the day. The focus in the first two stages was on proving the technologies as versus flying a fully developed combat aircraft. This meant that as FSED, LSP took off, a lot of re-engineering had to be done to accommodate the users perspective. There was also a learning curve involved in moving from airframe to airframe as conservative design limits were gradually relaxed. It was widely accepted that any mishap during that stage would really affect the effort so both the IAFs test pilots, and it's developers took extreme care to check each and every test point and mitigate the risk involved to whatever extent possible. That added time. 

Next, India's audit agency is notorious for putting out data that doesn't really reconcile with technical development. The CAG report is invariably followed by a Parliamentary Committee Report which acts on the CAG report and clarifies the mistakes of omission and commission therein in the original report. There is no conspiracy involved in not releasing any further reports, more like the program has cleared key hurdles is being ordered, and the CAG will most likely re-visit the topic after the Tejas is in squadron service for a few years. 

Last, the AESA radar has cleared IAF trials, and is now being prepped for series production. However HAL already has an agreement for the 2052 with Elta and that agreement specifies a minimum number of radars to be made locally. The Uttam AESA is hence most likely slated for the last couple of batches of the Mk1A, retrofitting earlier Mk1s, the follow on Tejas Mk2 and AMCA, and upgrading the sizeable Su-30 MKI fleet. 

https://delhidefencereview.com/2022/09/05/indigenous-uttam-aesa-radar-ready-doubts-loom-over-initial-order-size/amp/

 

Edited October 6, 2022 by nitin

[DB]

Nice to see you contributing again, Nitin.

[Sardaukar]

1 hour ago, nitin said:

30 Tejas Mk1 single seaters are already in squadron service. Another 2 to be delivered, followed by 8 trainers. The production shifts thereafter to 73 single seater and 10 twin seater Mk1A variants all of which have already been ordered. 

So at the very minimum, 6 squadrons, ie 123 Tejas will be in service. 

Next, the Tejas Mk2 program has also been funded and cleared and is also scheduled for a minimum of 6 squadrons. 

India's troubled procurement is primarily because it has discovered there is no way it can keep importing budget breaking stuff from abroad. So, finally, the focus is on homegrown programs as long as they meet service quality requirements. 

That is actually pretty good news. Thanks, good to know!

[lucklucky]

 

[Yama]

Wicked cool - although they did it purely for a photo-op, for the milestone of 'indigenous fighter flying off from indigenous carrier'. Naval Tejas was a flop and not suitable as an operational fighter.