Inhapi Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 14 hours ago, sunday said: Well, same could have been said of those that wanted the dissolution of Yugoslavia, and Czechoslovakia. Guess that? Now those two countries no longer exist. EUhm: this is about two countrue splitting up.. not like Italy invading Yugoslavia to occupy Dalamatia or Gemrny occupying Sudetenland... those are the correct parrallels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunday Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 33 minutes ago, Inhapi said: EUhm: this is about two countrue splitting up.. not like Italy invading Yugoslavia to occupy Dalamatia or Gemrny occupying Sudetenland... those are the correct parrallels oh, Czechoslovakia... Looks like the exact case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inhapi Posted September 14, 2022 Author Share Posted September 14, 2022 (edited) 15 minutes ago, sunday said: oh, Czechoslovakia... Looks like the exact case. What Russia is doing now ? yes, Czechoslavakia 1938 onwards..... edit: ofc started in 2014 Edited September 14, 2022 by Inhapi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunday Posted September 14, 2022 Share Posted September 14, 2022 (edited) Sometimes truth is slow to manifest itself. Time showed that Czechoslovakia was a fictious state, so the annexation of the Sudeten by Germany is perhaps the most accurate comparison with the special operation. Of course, it still remains to be seen if Putin is intent on conquering his Lebensraum, but he does not seem to want slices of the Baltics at the moment. Edited to add: More differences are: Czechoslovakia was formerly mainly Austrian, not German. Czechoslovakia was not shelling the Sudeten. There were no Minsk Agreements to stop shelling separatist regions. Edited September 15, 2022 by sunday Details Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inhapi Posted September 15, 2022 Author Share Posted September 15, 2022 (edited) 16 minutes ago, sunday said: Sometimes truth is slow to manifest itself. Time showed that Czechoslovakia was a fictious state, so the annexation of the Sudeten by Germany is perhaps the most accurate comparison with the special operation. Of course, it still remains to be seen if Putin is intent on conquering his Lebensraum, but he does not seem to want slices of the Baltics at the moment. Another difference is that Czechoslovakia was formerly mainly Austrian, not German. Can you perhaps provide us with a lsit of ficticious states thjat should be invaded and occupied for their ow good ?. Puton not "wanting slices fo the Baltics": because NATO perhpas... Another putiboo in action Edit; "special operation" even to cowardly to call it a military invasion ? Some people have no sense of ethics..... Edited September 15, 2022 by Inhapi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunday Posted September 15, 2022 Share Posted September 15, 2022 Quote Zbigniew Brzezinski has famously observed that “without Ukraine, Russia ceases to be an empire, but with Ukraine suborned and then subordinated, Russia automatically becomes an empire.” Both proponents of the restoration of the Russian empire in Moscow and their Western opponents—who favor playing lower-budget versions of the Grand Game in the post-Soviet neighborhood—probably agree with such a proposition. https://www.belfercenter.org/publication/does-russia-really-need-ukraine If Russia ceases to be an empire, then shades of the fragmentation of the American territories of the Spanish Monarchy at the beginning of the 19th century, unlike Brazil, come to mind, so the current conflict could be understood by the Russian side as a war of survival. Also this can be understood as a repetition of the Kosovo play in a much larger scale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Galbraith Posted September 15, 2022 Share Posted September 15, 2022 6 hours ago, sunday said: Sometimes truth is slow to manifest itself. Time showed that Czechoslovakia was a fictious state, so the annexation of the Sudeten by Germany is perhaps the most accurate comparison with the special operation. Of course, it still remains to be seen if Putin is intent on conquering his Lebensraum, but he does not seem to want slices of the Baltics at the moment. Edited to add: More differences are: Czechoslovakia was formerly mainly Austrian, not German. Czechoslovakia was not shelling the Sudeten. There were no Minsk Agreements to stop shelling separatist regions. Who the hell are you to determine that? Many millions of people were born in that country. Were they fictious too? If Catalan left Spain tomorrow, would that make Spain fictional? You really do utter some incredible nonsense. The truth is, you will try to mangle history to portray any reality you wish to present on this light. You can use any example from the 1930's, Ethiopia, Austria, the Sudetenland, the Danzig corridor, all would parallel what happened in Ukraine. Putin though he could take the copybook of Adolf Hitler and drop it into the present day, but he forgot the one important prerequisite. That you need a viable armed forces to undertake wars of aggression. Oh snap. Putin had an agreement to get a assurance Ukraine would not join NATO on the first day of the war. Had it at the negotiations. He dropped it, because, as I always said, he really wanted Ukraine, and folks like you can be the useful idiots all you like. You cannot change the reality that he embarked on a war of aggression in 2014, and we as the west didnt do nearly enough to stop him. This is the war you and your fellow Putin apologists made, I do hope you are proud of yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus Becker Posted September 15, 2022 Share Posted September 15, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Stuart Galbraith said: Who the hell are you to determine that? Many millions of people were born in that country. Were they fictious too? If Catalan left Spain tomorrow, would that make Spain fictional? You really do utter some incredible nonsense. The truth is, you will try to mangle history to portray any reality you wish to present on this light. You can use any example from the 1930's, Ethiopia, Austria, the Sudetenland, the Danzig corridor, all would parallel what happened in Ukraine. Putin though he could take the copybook of Adolf Hitler and drop it into the present day, but he forgot the one important prerequisite. That you need a viable armed forces to undertake wars of aggression. Oh snap. Putin had an agreement to get a assurance Ukraine would not join NATO on the first day of the war. Had it at the negotiations. He dropped it, because, as I always said, he really wanted Ukraine, and folks like you can be the useful idiots all you like. You cannot change the reality that he embarked on a war of aggression in 2014, and we as the west didnt do nearly enough to stop him. This is the war you and your fellow Putin apologists made, I do hope you are proud of yourself. Maybe he means artificial as in put together from different lands and peoples that had very little in common. Considering that the country broke up quickly after the end of Communism, I can see that being a point. Edit: Autocorrect corrected. Edited September 15, 2022 by Markus Becker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urbanoid Posted September 15, 2022 Share Posted September 15, 2022 3 hours ago, sunday said: https://www.belfercenter.org/publication/does-russia-really-need-ukraine If Russia ceases to be an empire, then shades of the fragmentation of the American territories of the Spanish Monarchy at the beginning of the 19th century, unlike Brazil, come to mind, so the current conflict could be understood by the Russian side as a war of survival. Also this can be understood as a repetition of the Kosovo play in a much larger scale. Spain exists, right? So would Russia, just not as an empire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunday Posted September 15, 2022 Share Posted September 15, 2022 22 minutes ago, Markus Becker said: Maybe he means artificial as in put together from different lands and peoples that had very little in common. Yes, artificial is a better word for what I was trying to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BansheeOne Posted September 15, 2022 Share Posted September 15, 2022 13 minutes ago, urbanoid said: Spain exists, right? So would Russia, just not as an empire. The equivalent here is Portugal leaving the Iberian Union 1640-1668. Both sides very close culturally and language-wise, yet obviously with sufficient differences beyond those between the other original Iberian kingdoms to fuel a successful war of separation. Both developed their unquestionable separate national identities, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inhapi Posted September 15, 2022 Author Share Posted September 15, 2022 (edited) 20 minutes ago, BansheeOne said: The equivalent here is Portugal leaving the Iberian Union 1640-1668. Both sides very close culturally and language-wise, yet obviously with sufficient differences beyond those between the other original Iberian kingdoms to fuel a successful war of separation. Both developed their unquestionable separate national identities, anyway. Edited September 15, 2022 by Inhapi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inhapi Posted September 15, 2022 Author Share Posted September 15, 2022 Just now, sunday said: Ok, sport. Where is Czechoslovakia now? Well, it has still not been invaded by a fading self styled imperial power afaik...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RETAC21 Posted September 15, 2022 Share Posted September 15, 2022 11 minutes ago, BansheeOne said: The equivalent here is Portugal leaving the Iberian Union 1640-1668. Both sides very close culturally and language-wise, yet obviously with sufficient differences beyond those between the other original Iberian kingdoms to fuel a successful war of separation. Both developed their unquestionable separate national identities, anyway. Actually, you can make a lot of points about Spain, where provinces came and went as late as 1975, Cuba, Puerto Rico, Philippines and the Spanish Sahara were all provinces, not colonies, and culture is and was all over the place. They are now independent (except Puerto Rico, obviously) and they don't want to be Spanish. There's even the example of the Dominican Republic, which became independent, thought better of it and came back into the fold, and then became independent again. The point is that a shared culture is meaningless if a nation wants to be independent AND is willing to fight for its independence (moreso, if the win!). BTW, some Portuguese believe Galicia should be part of Portugal because... shared language! Moving to more serious topics, a look into Russia: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1570101428542402561.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yama Posted September 15, 2022 Share Posted September 15, 2022 6 minutes ago, RETAC21 said: Actually, you can make a lot of points about Spain, where provinces came and went as late as 1975, Cuba, Puerto Rico, Philippines and the Spanish Sahara were all provinces, not colonies, and culture is and was all over the place. They are now independent (except Puerto Rico, obviously) and they don't want to be Spanish. There's even the example of the Dominican Republic, which became independent, thought better of it and came back into the fold, and then became independent again. The point is that a shared culture is meaningless if a nation wants to be independent AND is willing to fight for its independence (moreso, if the win!). Not to mention Catalonia, Euskadi... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunday Posted September 15, 2022 Share Posted September 15, 2022 3 minutes ago, Yama said: Not to mention Catalonia, Euskadi... Catalan separatists, of late, are quite quiet. Looks like not caring for their tantrum of 2017 did wonders, and are back to fighting among themselves. Basques are happy suckling from the rest of the Spaniards. In both cases illegal immigration and bad state of economy concern us more than sundry independences. That reminds me that pre-2014 Ukraine had not fought by her independence. So perhaps in the future we will see this conflict named the Ukrainian War of Independence. But only if they win. If not, the potential of the name World War III is increasing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RETAC21 Posted September 15, 2022 Share Posted September 15, 2022 26 minutes ago, Yama said: Not to mention Catalonia, Euskadi... Not mentioned because these are modern, XIX/XX century constructs, not something that has roots in history even though they have been fairly interiorised by a minority the locals, much like Russian World. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunday Posted September 15, 2022 Share Posted September 15, 2022 (edited) Another hilariously titled subthread. A better translation of Schräge could not be found? Edited September 15, 2022 by sunday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yama Posted September 15, 2022 Share Posted September 15, 2022 16 minutes ago, RETAC21 said: Not mentioned because these are modern, XIX/XX century constructs, not something that has roots in history even though they have been fairly interiorised by a minority the locals, much like Russian World. 'Modern'? Basques have been distinct since Roman times at least...it's the loss of their self-rule which is relatively modern development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunday Posted September 15, 2022 Share Posted September 15, 2022 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Yama said: 'Modern'? Basques have been distinct since Roman times at least...it's the loss of their self-rule which is relatively modern development. Basques had no self-rule since 1876, when defeat at the 3rd Carlist War and modernization of the structure of the State demanded some racionalization. They were considered as Castilians since about 1040, and as Castilians collaborated in the civilization of the New World, the Philippines, and other sundry territories. Then there was the autonomy during the 2nd Republic, but that is another can of worms. There is a mostly acceptable article in the english wikipedia on the matter. Edited September 15, 2022 by sunday Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RETAC21 Posted September 15, 2022 Share Posted September 15, 2022 6 minutes ago, Yama said: 'Modern'? Basques have been distinct since Roman times at least...it's the loss of their self-rule which is relatively modern development. Yes, and even before, in fact, everything that is good under the sun derives from Basque culture, but other were led astray and only us remain pure. That said, Basque nationalism is the invention of Sabino Arana, a guy that makes Nazis look like kittens, and is a quite recent invention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yama Posted September 15, 2022 Share Posted September 15, 2022 4 minutes ago, RETAC21 said: Yes, and even before, in fact, everything that is good under the sun derives from Basque culture, but other were led astray and only us remain pure. That said, Basque nationalism is the invention of Sabino Arana, a guy that makes Nazis look like kittens, and is a quite recent invention. Of course it would be: nationalism is largely a 19th century invention. Finnish nationalism, for example, didn't really exist until ~1830 or so. Didn't mean that Finns did not exist, however. You guys are talking about the present Basque autonomy, which is indeed a recent thing. But Vasconic areas had had their own customary laws and rules for centuries, which continued under Kings of Navarra, Spain etc - not because they were somehow sympathetic for Basque 'nationality' but simply because it was a convenient way to rule. Basically, Spain was transformed from an empire into a nation state, which of course may be problematic for those who don't feel like they belong to that 'nation'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunday Posted September 15, 2022 Share Posted September 15, 2022 7 minutes ago, Yama said: Of course it would be: nationalism is largely a 19th century invention. Finnish nationalism, for example, didn't really exist until ~1830 or so. Didn't mean that Finns did not exist, however. You guys are talking about the present Basque autonomy, which is indeed a recent thing. But Vasconic areas had had their own customary laws and rules for centuries, which continued under Kings of Navarra, Spain etc - not because they were somehow sympathetic for Basque 'nationality' but simply because it was a convenient way to rule. Basically, Spain was transformed from an empire into a nation state, which of course may be problematic for those who don't feel like they belong to that 'nation'. Yes, some of those medieval forms of government, feudalism with a Spanish flair due to Reconquista, more visible in Southern parts. Kingdom of Navarre not always included the Basque provinces, especially after 1040. For way of comparison, Navarre was incorporated to the rest of Spain in 1515. It could be said that the establishment of Spain as proto nation was in January 587 with the baptism of the Visigoth king Reccared I. Borders have not changed very much since then. Finally, please do not look for causes, or cold reasoning behind Nationalism. It is a matter of feelings, pretty much irrational. Like some mass sports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RETAC21 Posted September 15, 2022 Share Posted September 15, 2022 18 minutes ago, Yama said: Of course it would be: nationalism is largely a 19th century invention. Finnish nationalism, for example, didn't really exist until ~1830 or so. Didn't mean that Finns did not exist, however. You guys are talking about the present Basque autonomy, which is indeed a recent thing. But Vasconic areas had had their own customary laws and rules for centuries, which continued under Kings of Navarra, Spain etc - not because they were somehow sympathetic for Basque 'nationality' but simply because it was a convenient way to rule. Basically, Spain was transformed from an empire into a nation state, which of course may be problematic for those who don't feel like they belong to that 'nation'. But this is not unique to the Basque country by any means, different cities and provinces had their own legislative bodies (for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_Tribunal_of_the_plain_of_Valencia) and this is due to they way Spain came to be, as different territories came under the sovereignity of the King (which was appointed by his subjects, not crowned like in other places) meaning that the agreement under which they were incorporated included clauses that kept local laws and practices in place. This was unsustainable in an industrial world and eventually they have been done away, but they do not mean that any place that had a different law was a colony. Biscay had been incorporated into Castille since 1379, voluntarily, I may add. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RETAC21 Posted September 15, 2022 Share Posted September 15, 2022 27 minutes ago, Yama said: Basically, Spain was transformed from an empire into a nation state, which of course may be problematic for those who don't feel like they belong to that 'nation'. No, it's the other way around, while you can argue that Roman Hispania wasn't a national construct, the truth is that from that Roman subdivision is from what Spain and Portugal spring. Both had different and varied influences but share a common heritage in being romanised, invaded by the Arabs (and falling under muslim influence) and then being reconquered as Christian kingdoms. Because the Portuguese wrapped up their conquest earlier as an independent kingdom, that side of the branch broke away early and forever (and not without violence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Aljubarrota in a parallel with the current Russian/Ukrainian war). Other territories that currently claim they want to be independent in modern Spain either never were or never fought successfully for their independence, with the result that over time, the common project overtook the centrifugal tendencies (despite what a few would like now). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now