U.S. Flags at half mast.

[17thfabn]

Is it just my imagination or are flags ordered to be put at half mast more often the last year or so?

Many times it seems to be inappropriate to me.

For instance after the murder of former Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe. I have no doubt he was a fine person. But why were U.S. flags at half mast?

Senator Harry Reid. Was Senate Majority Leader for six years. And a hack politician. Of course hack and politician is repetitive. 

Elizabeth Queen of Britain. Again why are we going to half staff on our flags for a foreigner? 

The state of Ohio ordered flags to be put at half mast in remembrance of people who died of opiate over doses. Is that appropriate? 

While I'm ranting, when the flags go to half mast, people often forget to put them back up.

Edited September 9, 2022 by 17thfabn

[futon]

The proclamations is probably what adds a large amount to the frequency. Is there any guideline for when a proclamation can call for half mast, no idea, probably not. https://www.google.co.jp/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.va.gov/opa/publications/celebrate/halfstaff.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjvqLSE6Ib6AhWCmVYBHTUdDWwQFnoECAsQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0MS93nLqJw_iDvF78FT9HX

[Soren Ras]

One of the defining ills of our civilization at this time:

Virtue must be signalled.

(message: we care)

--

Soren

[Stuart Galbraith]

4 hours ago, 17thfabn said:

Is it just my imagination or are flags ordered to be put at half mast more often the last year or so?

Many times it seems to be inappropriate to me.

For instance after the murder of former Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe. I have no doubt he was a fine person. But why were U.S. flags at half mast?

Senator Harry Reid. Was Senate Majority Leader for six years. And a hack politician. Of course hack and politician is repetitive. 

Elizabeth Queen of Britain. Again why are we going to half staff on our flags for a foreigner? 

The state of Ohio ordered flags to be put at half mast in remembrance of people who died of opiate over doses. Is that appropriate? 

While I'm ranting, when the flags go to half mast, people often forget to put them back up.

Ah, how quickly they forget. Twas but 20 minutes ago to us Britons.

 

[DougRichards]

and
 

Please remember that the Queen was the the Queen, separately, of Australia, of New Zealand, of Canada and other Commonwealth nations.

We mourned with you after 9/11, please don't disparage us for mourning a person who was an important symbol to us.  

[Soren Ras]

No one is disparaging any Briton or Commonwealth member mourning Her Majesty's passing. In fact, you have many people worldwide who were not her subjects who grieve as well. I am one of them.

The question raised was rather the modern vogue for lowering flags for events that would not have warranted it in a previous age.

There used to be some fairly clear-cut rules for when you lower flags, and if you will recall, that caused a moment of memorable friction when Diana died, as the Crown received a large measure of criticism for not having the flags on Buckingham Palace at half mast, which was completely in keeping with the rules (as no flag is flown when the Queen is not in residence and since the only flag flown is the Royal Standard, representing the monarchy, it is never flown at half mast), but appeared cold and callous to a public that combined ignorance of history with the modern penchant for public displays of emotion.  And the modern age has no reverence or respect for protocol, so of course it all ended up with the Union Jack being flown over Buckingham Palace for the first time ever, and at half mast at that.

9/11 was a rather special case, I daresay. 

To elaborate, I have never been a subject of Elizabeth II. Danes have our own queen, and she is generally thought to have done a stellar job in her (so far) 50 years on the throne, and her son and heir is rather less impressive. When she passes, people will mourn and flags will fly at half mast everywhere in Denmark. It would, however, be exceedingly odd for the same to happen in other countries. 

Anyway, Elizabeth II was an extremely admirable person, someone who did her duty to the end, and her passing truly is the end of an era.

Rest in peace.

 

--
Soren

 

[DougRichards]

3 minutes ago, Soren Ras said:

No one is disparaging any Briton or Commonwealth member mourning Her Majesty's passing. In fact, you have many people worldwide who were not her subjects who grieve as well. I am one of them.

The question raised was rather the modern vogue for lowering flags for events that would not have warranted it in a previous age.

There used to be some fairly clear-cut rules for when you lower flags, and if you will recall, that caused a moment of memorable friction when Diana died, as the Crown received a large measure of criticism for not having the flags on Buckingham Palace at half mast, which was completely in keeping with the rules (as no flag is flown when the Queen is not in residence and since the only flag flown is the Royal Standard, representing the monarchy, it is never flown at half mast), but appeared cold and callous to a public that combined ignorance of history with the modern penchant for public displays of emotion.  And the modern age has no reverence or respect for protocol, so of course it all ended up with the Union Jack being flown over Buckingham Palace for the first time ever, and at half mast at that.

9/11 was a rather special case, I daresay. 

To elaborate, I have never been a subject of Elizabeth II. Danes have our own queen, and she is generally thought to have done a stellar job in her (so far) 50 years on the throne, and her son and heir is rather less impressive. When she passes, people will mourn and flags will fly at half mast everywhere in Denmark. It would, however, be exceedingly odd for the same to happen in other countries. 

Anyway, Elizabeth II was an extremely admirable person, someone who did her duty to the end, and her passing truly is the end of an era.

Rest in peace.

 

--
Soren

 

I have never been a subject of Queen Elizabeth II either,  I have been a citizen in a country where she was accepted as the head of state, above politics, represented by a locally chosen person. 

I understand what you are questioning about the lowering of the flag to half mast, yes.  In fact in some ways I agree with you.  In effect she meant nothing, in a state hood way, to those outside the Commonwealth, and the lowering of  other than those countries' flags is not really a sign of respect.

If those countries who respect and mourn with us are willing to lower the British / Union flag for a day on a separate flagpole, whilst leaving their own flag flying high, that would be a good symbol.

[LT Ducky]

I totally agree with 17thfabn - flags are flown at half-mast so frequently in recent years for sometimes obscure persons/occasions that it has lost much of its special meaning.

As for the death of the queen, appropriate in my view.

[shep854]

3 hours ago, LT Ducky said:

I totally agree with 17thfabn - flags are flown at half-mast so frequently in recent years for sometimes obscure persons/occasions that it has lost much of its special meaning.

As for the death of the queen, appropriate in my view.

Nailed it, Ducks.

[Stargrunt6]

14 hours ago, 17thfabn said:

Is it just my imagination or are flags ordered to be put at half mast more often the last year or so?

Many times it seems to be inappropriate to me.

For instance after the murder of former Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe. I have no doubt he was a fine person. But why were U.S. flags at half mast?

Senator Harry Reid. Was Senate Majority Leader for six years. And a hack politician. Of course hack and politician is repetitive. 

Elizabeth Queen of Britain. Again why are we going to half staff on our flags for a foreigner? 

The state of Ohio ordered flags to be put at half mast in remembrance of people who died of opiate over doses. Is that appropriate? 

While I'm ranting, when the flags go to half mast, people often forget to put them back up.

I've noticed it too.  Since like 5-6 years ago. We sad. America sad. 

[shep854]

Hard to argue against, feelz and all…

[TrustMe]

I saw a British union jack flying at half mast today when I was walking home. It maybe weird to say this but in the UK only neo nazi's fly the Union Jack outside there homes 😐

[sunday]

1 minute ago, TrustMe said:

I saw a British union jack flying at half mast today when I was walking home. It maybe weird to say this but in the UK only neo nazi's fly the Union Jack outside there homes 😐

This is so sad, in so many levels.

[TrustMe]

1 hour ago, sunday said:

This is so sad, in so many levels.

The UK is not a very patriotic country unless were fighting someone or if were winning at the World Cup or Euro Cup 😀

[Stuart Galbraith]

We are Patriotic, but we aren't showy Patriotic. Even during the war, it was restrained. Other nations stick a flag on everything, and sing the national anthem every chance they get. We dont, it's not our way. Except perhaps for Jubilees, when we go all in.

[sunday]

1 hour ago, TrustMe said:

The UK is not a very patriotic country unless were fighting someone or if were winning at the World Cup or Euro Cup 😀

Are we Spaniards going to have Gibraltar back, then? 😁

[Wobbly Head]

1 hour ago, TrustMe said:

The UK is not a very patriotic country unless were fighting someone or if were winning at the World Cup or Euro Cup 😀

Or at least until they get to a penalty shootout.

[rmgill]

11 hours ago, LT Ducky said:

As for the death of the queen, appropriate in my view.

I am of the same mind as well. 

[rmgill]

5 hours ago, sunday said:

This is so sad, in so many levels.

The larger issue is the wholesale revilement of western civilization. 

[sunday]

51 minutes ago, rmgill said:

The larger issue is the wholesale revilement of western civilization. 

Pretty much. When Patriotism -not even Nationalism- is mistaken as Nazism, the situation begins to be dire.

[rmgill]

Even if it's nationalism. 

Irish Republicanism IS nationalism. French patriotism IS nationalism. No nationalism, no nations. You just go back to kingdoms, empires, duchies, etc. 

[sunday]

1 hour ago, rmgill said:

Even if it's nationalism. 

Irish Republicanism IS nationalism. French patriotism IS nationalism. No nationalism, no nations. You just go back to kingdoms, empires, duchies, etc. 

France exists since the baptism of Clovis in 496, way before Nationalism was invented. Same with Spain, Reccared I, and 587.

Nationalism was mainly a product of Romanticism, and could be understood as a kind of cult to the nation.

One of my pet peeves with the concept of Nationalism is that the rebel side in the Spanish Civil War is called Nationalists in English. They called themselves Nacionales in Spanish, not Nacionalistas, to show there was no foreign influence in the direction of the war from their side, not like the Moscow-advised Red side. There were Nationalists in the SCW, but those were Catalan and Basque Nationalists, and the constant struggle of them to have some kind of independent command was one of the reasons for the poor performance of the Red side. 

[Stuart Galbraith]

1 hour ago, rmgill said:

Even if it's nationalism. 

Irish Republicanism IS nationalism. French patriotism IS nationalism. No nationalism, no nations. You just go back to kingdoms, empires, duchies, etc. 

The British, as you will have surely noticed if you have studied us for any length of time, dont agree. Patriotism for us is this, and a mighty fine thing it is too.

Nationalism, we regard as this.

 

Its worth looking at the dictionary definition of Nationalism and Patriotism.

Nationalism

: loyalty and devotion to a nation especially : a sense of national consciousness (see consciousness sense 1c) exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups

Patriotism

: love for or devotion to one's country

 

Some people say they are exactly the same thing, but from us there is a subtle, but real difference. Patriotism is inclusive. Anyone born in a nation can love their country, whatever their heritage, if they choose to do so. Nationalism, as we can see with the Scottish or Irish Nationalists, is basically saying, 'This is ours, this belongs to us, Scots, Irish, Americans, etc, not to you. Fuck off'.

And if you want to know why we feel that way, look at the French Revolution, and the British reaction to it. It perhaps was regarded that Nationalism was regarded as synonymous with Republicanism, always dangerous to a Monarchy, and would would want to decend into Bonapartism anyway? After the American revolution, we are always going to look at Nationalists as if they are a bunch of freaks. Looking at Putin, I feel wholly confident in retaining that point of view.

 

 

[shep854]

6 hours ago, rmgill said:

Even if it's nationalism. 

Irish Republicanism IS nationalism. French patriotism IS nationalism. No nationalism, no nations. You just go back to kingdoms, empires, duchies, etc. 

Barbarism; tribes and immediate families.

[rmgill]

By very nature patriotism is nationalism as one loves one's country above all others. I'll dig up Scrunton's definition in a minute.