Green Energy, and the German Grid, from: Kiev Is Burning

[rmgill]

You can burn coal in wood stoves too. 

[bojan]

[jmsaari]

9 hours ago, lucklucky said:

Traditional is not necessarely natural/environmentally friendly. A quarter with 8 floors buildings all with wood burning might not be good for breathing.

Wood (as in traditional logs of firewood) isn't really feasible for heating large buildings in cities for many reasons, air quality is only one, a bigger reason being that in colder parts of Europe, probably including Germany for the most part, such buildings are mostly on district heating and moving to another system would be a significant investment. Also, especially if talking about firewood, the sheer amount of wood needed would be a problem.

Pellet boilers would solve much of the air quality and logistics issues but still if the building doesnt have a boiler room and a chimney, its a non-starter. 

In houses at suburbs though, if there is a fireplace, that's an easy way to augment gas, and many of the small boilers have been multi-fuel for decades already. My father went from oil heating to a wood/oil boiler around 20 years ago, has used almost exclusively wood since (as in firewood, not pellets).I would be surprised of there wasnt a good amount of multi-fuel boilers around German houses as well.

[BansheeOne]

In fact environmentalists here are pointing out that while wood/pellet heating may be CO²-neutral, it's producing lots of health-detrimental particulates which were the rallying cry in trying to ban (older) cars from inner cities in recent years. There's just no pleasing some people.

[Huba]

30 minutes ago, BansheeOne said:

In fact environmentalists here are pointing out that while wood/pellet heating may be CO²-neutral, it's producing lots of health-detrimental particulates which were the rallying cry in trying to ban (older) cars from inner cities in recent years. There's just no pleasing some people.

Exactly! At least around these parts, the air is the worst not in city centers or districts with multi-family buildings, but in suburbs. It really take 1 house out of 100 that constantly burns stuff to pollute the air so much that to put tears in your eyes. It can be alleviated a bit with high-tech stoves that burns wood/ coal pellets, but if there's enough of those, and there's no wind, the whole neighbourhood is toast. Low-level emissions are definitely the worst source of air pollution.

It is a completely separate matter from the CO2, it is about generating smog, a much worse issue that directly affects your health.

Edited July 15, 2022 by Huba

[Ssnake]

58 minutes ago, BansheeOne said:

In fact environmentalists here are pointing out that while wood/pellet heating may be CO²-neutral, it's producing lots of health-detrimental particulates which were the rallying cry in trying to ban (older) cars from inner cities in recent years.

Another one of those inane debates, completely suspended from reality

 

a. What's the composition of those particulates?

Mostly rubber from tires, and from brakes.

So, how to solve it? I guess we'll have to make tires and brakes illegal.

 

b. Which of the inner-city traffic carriers subjects its passengers to the higherst concentration of particulates?

Underground rail.

So, I guess if we're really concerned about it, that's the first to close.

[Ivanhoe]

The US has regulations affecting wood-burning stoves due to the particulate thing. AFAIK they don't have anything that deals with fireplaces, bonfires, etc.

Given the current situation in Europe, I would think adding pellet stoves as a "booster" for gas or electric heat would be wise. Something to use when temps get below freezing or if there's a hiccup in the more modern energy sources.

Pellet stoves would have been wonderful for Texas during the 2021 Icepocalypse, but there probably aren't too many trademen who would know how to properly install them. And I shudder to think of the reaction of codes inspectors; visualize orangutans performing routine maintenance on a Cummins diesel engine.

[DB]

3 hours ago, BansheeOne said:

In fact environmentalists here are pointing out that while wood/pellet heating may be CO²-neutral, it's producing lots of health-detrimental particulates which were the rallying cry in trying to ban (older) cars from inner cities in recent years. There's just no pleasing some people.

The earliest UK anti pollution laws were aimed at getting the London "pea-souper" fogs under control. Banning normal coal in favour of "smokeless coal", with Clean Air Acts in 1956 and 1968.

Sulphur dioxide isn't just a product of (some) coals, it and other unpleasant combustion by-products are obviously present in wood combustion products too.

[jmsaari]

The problem with wood is mainly achieving complete combustion, the amount of impurities is very little, especially sulphur is pretty much zero, and ash content is very low also. But especially with firewood, you tend to end up with a lot of unburnt volatiles, CO and particles coming out the chimney, especially in the startup and final smoldering. Pellets are more dry and in a pellet burner the combustion is a lot more controllable in terms of oxygen , temperature etc than trying to burn a pile of firewood on a grate so emissions are easily an order of magnitude less, but in relative terms any solid fuel is still going to burn dirty compared to gas or light oil.

Anyway, every now and then the estimate of around 200  annual deaths (in total population of 5 M) due to air pollution from small-scale firewood use comes up in the news here, but no serious effort has (or will) come to curb any of that since even the green party understands what political suicide it would be to try to curb the use of wood-fired saunas in Finland...

[Huba]

1 hour ago, jmsaari said:

The problem with wood is mainly achieving complete combustion, the amount of impurities is very little, especially sulphur is pretty much zero, and ash content is very low also. But especially with firewood, you tend to end up with a lot of unburnt volatiles, CO and particles coming out the chimney, especially in the startup and final smoldering. Pellets are more dry and in a pellet burner the combustion is a lot more controllable in terms of oxygen , temperature etc than trying to burn a pile of firewood on a grate so emissions are easily an order of magnitude less, but in relative terms any solid fuel is still going to burn dirty compared to gas or light oil.

Anyway, every now and then the estimate of around 200  annual deaths (in total population of 5 M) due to air pollution from small-scale firewood use comes up in the news here, but no serious effort has (or will) come to curb any of that since even the green party understands what political suicide it would be to try to curb the use of wood-fired saunas in Finland...

In Poland some cities (most notably Krakow) enacted a complete ban on burning solid fuels for any purpose within it's borders during the winter(with the exception of district heating plants with appropriate chimneys). Quite drastic, but in general it was very well received, and quality of air got visibly better. People used to wears face masks there during the winter, like in Chinese cities affected by sandstorms.

Edited July 15, 2022 by Huba

[Huba]

A very outraged engineer reviews German position on closing the nukes despite the looming energy crisis. Quite convincing if you ask me, and another blow to Scholz  government's credibility:

 

[Harold Jones]

On 7/15/2022 at 6:08 AM, DB said:

...Sulphur dioxide isn't just a product of (some) coals, it and other unpleasant combustion by-products are obviously present in wood combustion products too.

Some of those by-products make for some tasty treats when applied to pork, chicken, fish or beef.

[jmsaari]

1 hour ago, Harold Jones said:

Some of those by-products make for some tasty treats when applied to pork, chicken, fish or beef.

Just further proof that healthy eating is very simple: if it tastes good, spit it out. 

[sunday]

56 minutes ago, jmsaari said:

Just further proof that healthy Puritan eating is very simple: if it tastes good, spit it out. 

FIFY

[Colin]

On 7/14/2022 at 5:29 PM, bojan said:

I had a very similar oil/wood burning stove in my cottage, leave big pot of water on it or it will suck you dry overnight.

[bojan]

That one is old as fuck, IIRC copy of the German 1920s design. Still going strong in the rural parts of Serbia, since it will burn even a wettest wood w/o suffocating you.

 

[Colin]

Mine had the firebox on the left and oil regulator valve on the side, it could burn wood as well, but you had to clean out the box before going back to oil.

[lucklucky]

Quote

 

Pierre L. Gosselin

Germany’s Running Out Of Energy: Wind Turbine Construction Stalls, Firewood Becoming Scarce!

By P Gosselin on 16. July 2022

Share this...

Wind energy installation stalls, firewood becomes scarce as Germany shuts down its coal and nuclear power, sees gas stockpiles dwindle away. 

Firewood is getting scarce in Germany as heating prices skyrocket. Photo: P. Gosselin

As natural gas and oil for heating skyrockets, many Germans are now turning to firewood as a way to keep warm this coming winter. But now firewood is getting rare too, and prices are skyrocketing. The German online Merkur reports of “exploding demand”.

According to firewood dealer Konrad Kötterl. “Some people are panicking about not being able to get any more wood.” As a result, they’re stockpiling. Normally, he has three to four orders a day in the summer. “Right now, it’s 20 to 30.”

Personally, I called a local firewood dealer earlier in the week. They told me they have none left and that they could put me down on a waiting list.

 

https://notrickszone.com

[sunday]

Now, copper scarcity!

https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/15/netzero_emissions_copper/

Quote

Copper is so central to transitioning from fossil fuels to sustainable energy, says a report from S&P Global, that worldwide demand is likely to double by 2035 from 25 million metric tons to 50; no matter the scenario, S&P said it's unlikely the world will be able to meet it.

"The record-high level of demand would be sustained and continue to grow to 53 million metric tons in 2050 – more than all the copper consumed in the world between 1900 and 2021," S&P Global said.

 

[Ivanhoe]

Since my AO has been having a consistently hot summer, a current joke is "It's so hot, the methheads are putting copper wire back in the A/Cs."

 

[rmgill]

Its like the greenies sold their house before planning a move, let alone buying a new one but are now wondering why they have to pay for a hotel room to live in. 

[lucklucky]

Quote

If you've got them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow?

 

Then:

Quote

 

“We have again examined very carefully whether a longer operation of the nuclear power plants would help us in this foreign policy situation,” German Vice-Chancellor Robert Habeck said in a statement on Tuesday.

“The answer is negative – it would not help us,” he concluded…

 

 

 

Now:

 

Quote

 

Germany may extend the life of its three remaining nuclear power plants, the economy ministry said on Monday, as public support rises in the face of a possible cut-off of Russian gas…

The ministry said power grid operators had requested a second assessment of the viability of nuclear power.

“We will now calculate again and then make a decision on the basis of clear facts,” a ministry spokesperson said, adding the results of the new evaluation were expected in a few weeks…

 

https://hotair.com/john-s-2/2022/07/19/germany-on-second-thought-maybe-we-wont-shut-down-our-remaining-nuclear-power-plants-n483735

[BansheeOne]

On 7/8/2022 at 6:32 PM, Ssnake said:

It might have been possible if someone reeally had had a drive to get it done. But at the same time, electricity generation isn't the big issue. There's enough coal in Germany, and enough coal power plants, and there were but a meagre three nuclear power plants still operating. Plus, the nuclear industry received handsome compensation for shutting down the plants early after their negotiated early end of operations date was extended by Merkel, the pro-nuclear chancellor, and then cut short again by Merkel, the anti-nuclear chancellor. Extending the operation of the plants would have incurred the legal risk of having to pay back some of those nice billions into the much less deserving hands of the taxpayer, so the power plant operators weren't too eager for those proposals themselves; I suppose their May statements that new fuel rods would have to be ordered "very soon" were half-hearted, if not outright trolling of a political class that cannot make up their minds about the nuclear power thing.

Well according to experts of the TÜV safety inspection organization, from a technical point of view not only could the last three nuke plants still be extended, but another three decommissioned last year could be safely re-commissioned within a few months or even weeks, and all could operate until 2026. It still wouldn't help with substituting for heating and industry use of gas this winter any more than it could be done by other means to replace the ten percent or so used for power generation; but it's notable that even Green minister of economy Robert Habeck is not ruling out nuclear extension pending results of another "stress test" for electric grid stability simulating complete drop-out of Russian gas and French nuclear energy deliveries.

[Ssnake]

All I'm hearing is, "we're not mentally prepared for this situation and need more coping time to accept the inevitable"

[BansheeOne]

That's probably a pretty good take. 😁