Green Energy, and the German Grid, from: Kiev Is Burning

[urbanoid]

11 minutes ago, Huba said:

Reading how large windfarms need to be balanced (by gas turbines mostly, around here anyway) makes hair on my neck stand up. Really, just building the crapload of nukes French style sounds like the best solution - and it is scalable to support all that teleportation devices we're going be using in the future

We should and we probably will, just not with the French. My bet is on our new besties from Worst Korea™.

[Huba]

9 minutes ago, urbanoid said:

We should and we probably will, just not with the French. My bet is on our new besties from Worst Korea™.

Why not,  Koreans look like stand-up fellas. And don't care about what we do regarding those pesky EU norms...

Seriously, I'm all for it, let's be truly independent. Though, if war in Ukraine goes the Ukraine's way, we might have a nearby, cheap source of gas available, with most of the pipes in place already, and it will be just too tempting...

Edited July 8, 2022 by Huba

[urbanoid]

1 minute ago, Huba said:

Why not,  Koreans look like stand-up fellas. And don't care about what we do regarding those pesky EU norms...

Seriously though, I'm all for it, let's be truly independent. Though, if war in Ukraine goes the Ukraine's way, we might have a nearby, cheap source of gas available, with most of the pipes in place already, and it will be just too tempting...

Oh, I'd absolutely love to cooperate with them, they're relatively cheap and fast. I'm pretty sure their reactors will be enough to satisfy the EUwhatever's norms. And they're green and shit, so maybe partial EU financing? 

[Huba]

7 minutes ago, urbanoid said:

Oh, I'd absolutely love to cooperate with them, they're relatively cheap and fast. I'm pretty sure their reactors will be enough to satisfy the EUwhatever's norms. And they're green and shit, so maybe partial EU financing? 

OTOH, last thing I read about it, it was practically decided that it will be Westinghouse who will be the main partner in the first nuke. Probably much more expensive, but still better than Hungary is doing with Rosatom 😜

 

[Ssnake]

 

[rmgill]

Wind and solar need a 100% duplication of other sources. This doubles your cost  at least. 

[sunday]

37 minutes ago, rmgill said:

Wind and solar need a 100% duplication of other sources. This doubles your cost  at least. 

Or more than that, as the other sources need to be flexible enough to accommodate unplanned variation on power generation. You need flexible hydro or gas turbines. No coal, no nuclear, and no leveraging of natural gas cogeneration.

[jmsaari]

7 hours ago, rmgill said:

Wind and solar need a 100% duplication of other sources. This doubles your cost  at least. 

It doesn't work quite that simple, the whole power system is usually always a combination of many types of generation, some with expensive investment but cheap to run (like nuclear) for baseload, and some cheap to buy but expensive to run (like reciprocating or gas turbine running on gas or light oil). You can pretty much always add >20% of wind to a grid without introducing system costs worth mentioning and just cash in on the cheap energy and replace the most expensive marginal cost with zero marginal cost. But if you try to build the whole network with wind+solar, the cost will start to go up exponentially towards the final percents where even doubling the cost will not be even near enough to cover the transmission, storage and reserve power requirements keep the system balanced at all possible load and weather variations.

[sunday]

20 minutes ago, jmsaari said:

It doesn't work quite that simple

About 40% then, or the load in a dark, windless night when reservoirs of dams are at an enough low level.

[Ivanhoe]

More of a thing in North America and Oztralia, but IMHO location of solar/wind generation should be in rural areas which are often poorly served by the grid.

That said, what I'd like to see in my AO is a nuclear base of at least 75%, 25% gas base with an additional 10% backup, and 20% solar/wind.

Keep in mind too that the US is seeing a substantial population shift. Free states are experiencing substantial emigration and production is barely keeping up.

[urbanoid]

12 minutes ago, Ivanhoe said:

More of a thing in North America and Oztralia, but IMHO location of solar/wind generation should be in rural areas which are often poorly served by the grid.

That said, what I'd like to see in my AO is a nuclear base of at least 75%, 25% gas base with an additional 10% backup, and 20% solar/wind.

Keep in mind too that the US is seeing a substantial population shift. Free states are experiencing substantial emigration and production is barely keeping up.

A good... starting point, definitely. In the end we need far more backup if we're serious about 'electromobile future' or whatever. 

[rmgill]

So what comes out of the BASF Plant in Ludwigshafen?

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/basf-says-it-would-stop-output-if-gas-supplies-fell-half-its-needs-2022-03-30/

[BansheeOne]

Mostly everything. Ludwigshafen is an integrated site feeding from two steam crackers turning naphta into ethylene, propylene and other short-chain hydrocarbons as the basis for production of resins, glues, paints, solvents, softeners, plastics, you name it, we cook it (unless we run out of gas).

Edited July 11, 2022 by BansheeOne

[rmgill]

So no cosmetics, plastics, glue, paints when they shut down....

[Ssnake]

...and a gazillion preproducts in other industries.

[Ivanhoe]

On 7/9/2022 at 8:49 AM, urbanoid said:

A good... starting point, definitely. In the end we need far more backup if we're serious about 'electromobile future' or whatever. 

[Ivanhoe]

Germans, 2024;

[rmgill]

And to be expected when they get tired of it all...

2030

[rmgill]

https://www.westernjournal.com/journalists-tow-camper-behind-electric-truck-end-stunning-failure-make-85-miles/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=PostSideSharingButtons&utm_campaign=websitesharingbuttons&fbclid=IwAR0S5DPVuAleNW1q1rv9oKFQT-9O9ltZGoX0Z0MwAGyPFRkHjFQGCJDndFI

Range estimates for the Electric Truck was wildly optimistic....

 

[Ivanhoe]

Ford bet their whole stack of chips on their e-truck, to the point where you can't order a Superduty right now.

Stupid effers. They should have bet their whole stack of chips on their hybrid F-150, which looked very promising to me.

The Lightning is the E-dsel of the 21st century.

[sunday]

20 minutes ago, Ivanhoe said:

The Lightning is the E-dsel of the 21st century.

ROTFL

[lucklucky]

 

[jmsaari]

43 minutes ago, lucklucky said:

 

Seems logical to do where it's possible. I know many here who have been saving oil/electricity/district heating costs by burning some wood in addition to the main heat source. Often if you own forest or know someone who does, it's basically zero price (and good exercise as bonus).

[BansheeOne]

That's actually sorta happening already as people are buying wood and pellet stoves (or going for complete pellet heating), partially within a trend to go traditional and natural/environmentally friendly that has long been going on, partially in acute response to fears about gas outages this winter. So it's not so much modeling ways out of a crisis rather than taking current developments into account.

[lucklucky]

Traditional is not necessarely natural/environmentally friendly. A quarter with 8 floors buildings all with wood burning might not be good for breathing.