New book on Cold war plans of Warsaw Treaty on South European Theater

[Perun]

Yes but earlier toe is mentioned so you can compare toe of division and toe of brigade after reorganisation, IIRC ewen year of reorganisation is mentioned

[Perun]

This one seams interesting

https://koldkrig-online.dk/wp-content/uploads/Truslen_Mod_Danmark_1988.pdf

[Mykola Saichuk]

7 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Is there anything in there about the TOE of the 7th Sealanding Division in the early 80's? The nearest ive found so far was at the other end of the 1980's when they had made some changes.

Also, is there any further Polis exercise maps, similar to those you posted on your site? The Kuklinski files I think they were called.

 

It's for you TO&E of 7th Division. Author Wojciech Mazurek is a veteran of the 7th Division.
He sent me his books before the war with Russia started.
He has another book on the history of the defense of the Polish seacoast
 

[Mykola Saichuk]

Jaroslaw Palka in his book described all the polish battle plans of the United Armed Forces of Warsaw Pact (1955-1989).

https://ksiegarniaipn.pl/ksiazka/polskie-wojska-operacyjne-w-ukladzie-warszawskim-jaroslaw,537248

There are a lot of maps in the book.
 

[Perun]

Do you have this one

[Mykola Saichuk]

8 hours ago, Rick said:

A tad off topic geographically, but what was the Red Army's (Warsaw Pact) plan for France?

Sir, the occupation of France was the second operation in a military campaign on the continent. The Soviet command, since World War 2, has developed a detailed plan for the first operation only. During the first operation, many unexpected events could have happened on the territory of the FRG and Benelux, so there was no point in making a plan for the second operation in advance. You can only see training decisions on France from command and staff exercises (e.g. "Soyuz-80").

[Mykola Saichuk]

19 minutes ago, Perun said:

Do you have this one

yes

[Stuart Galbraith]

13 hours ago, Mykola Saichuk said:

It's for you TO&E of 7th Division. Author Wojciech Mazurek is a veteran of the 7th Division.
He sent me his books before the war with Russia started.
He has another book on the history of the defense of the Polish seacoast
 

Awesome, thanks Mykola!

[Stuart Galbraith]

13 hours ago, Mykola Saichuk said:

Jaroslaw Palka in his book described all the polish battle plans of the United Armed Forces of Warsaw Pact (1955-1989).

https://ksiegarniaipn.pl/ksiazka/polskie-wojska-operacyjne-w-ukladzie-warszawskim-jaroslaw,537248

There are a lot of maps in the book.
 

Does it say anything in that about 4th Army? Clearly the 1st and 2nd were for the coastal front in two different directions, but there has never been any discussion about the 4th. Did they envisage committing it elsewhere behind one of the other fronts, or was it envisaged in a home defence role, perhaps to keep the Polish people under the thumb?

[Perun]

38 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Does it say anything in that about 4th Army? Clearly the 1st and 2nd were for the coastal front in two different directions, but there has never been any discussion about the 4th. Did they envisage committing it elsewhere behind one of the other fronts, or was it envisaged in a home defence role, perhaps to keep the Polish people under the thumb?

From my conversation with polish mates they said that during martial law people responded well with army, they bring them food and drink. After all that was Polish army.

[Rick]

15 hours ago, Mykola Saichuk said:

Sir, the occupation of France was the second operation in a military campaign on the continent. The Soviet command, since World War 2, has developed a detailed plan for the first operation only. During the first operation, many unexpected events could have happened on the territory of the FRG and Benelux, so there was no point in making a plan for the second operation in advance. You can only see training decisions on France from command and staff exercises (e.g. "Soyuz-80").

Thank you for this. Did this "second operation" include Great Britain? Sweden and Norway?

[Mykola Saichuk]

 

On 8/18/2023 at 1:00 PM, Rick said:

Thank you for this. Did this "second operation" include Great Britain? Sweden and Norway?

1 - there is the general scheme of the Soyuz-83 exercise with the first and second offensive operation on the European continent. The task was as follows: to break through to the Northern Pyrenees by the end of the 31-35th day of the offensive.

To date, I have yet to see maps of an exercise involving an amphibious landing in the UK. In a nuclear war you can't foresee this in advance.

141 - it is a map with the coastal areas that are convenient for landing in England (green color №№25 - 31).

Norway and Sweden were the Soviet Army's (not Warsaw Pact) Northwest Theater of Operations. Here, the first operation is an offensive of the combinied army in Northern Norway with a sea landing. Actions for the longer term of the war have not been declassified.

 

 

Edited September 10, 2023 by Mykola Saichuk

[Stuart Galbraith]

Its interesting to note that the tip of the spear in the coastal front are the Polish. You can see in the exercise they were tasked with taking Calais. It may have been envisaged that after capturing Zealand, 7th Sealanding Division, as well as the Airborne Brigade, would have got pulled out the line, and set aside for this purpose.

Be a fun thing to wargame this scenario, Sealion 1980...

In reality, it probably wouldnt have happened, because Polaris. Ive also been somewhat suspicious of plans to invade France for the same reason. The Force de frappe was more than powerful enough to do serious damage to the USSR. If they have already managed to get through West Germany without triggering NATO's nuclear response, why would they take the chance?

 

Edited August 19, 2023 by Stuart Galbraith

[Mykola Saichuk]

9 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Its interesting to note that the tip of the spear in the coastal front are the Polish. You can see in the exercise they were tasked with taking Calais. It may have been envisaged that after capturing Zealand, 7th Sealanding Division, as well as the Airborne Brigade, would have got pulled out the line, and set aside for this purpose.

Be a fun thing to wargame this scenario, Sealion 1980...

In reality, it probably wouldnt have happened, because Polaris. Ive also been somewhat suspicious of plans to invade France for the same reason. The Force de frappe was more than powerful enough to do serious damage to the USSR. If they have already managed to get through West Germany without triggering NATO's nuclear response, why would they take the chance?

 

21 hours ago, Rick said:

 

 

Such a strategic offensive of the Warsaw Pact without the massive use of tactical nuclear weapons from the first day is not possible in principle. Therefore, all these plans are "mind games" by the staffs.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Well, we can see just that by looking at the Polish warplan on your website. There is barely a square corner of Europe they werent used.

That said, there is a pretty interesting book I found on google books called ' The Soviet High Command, 1967-1989' by Dale Roy Herspring. He had a fascinating chapter on the relationship between Marshal Ogarkov and Minister of Defence Dimitri Ustinov. He claims there is good evidence from the mid 70's on of an emerging intent in the USSR to try to do without nuclear weapons. That Ogarkov believed that moving towards highly mobile formatons, such at OMG's, to overrun the enemy's rear areas, was the way to unlock the NATO defence. That under such circumstances, it was probably better not to use nuclear  weapons at all, because it would just slow down the attack.

So, conceivably, by the early 1980's they might have forgone nuclear weapons right at the start. Or at least, that was the stated intent. They clearly had them in reserve just in case it didnt work out. On the day it probably just came down to how prepared NATO was. That the Pact could prepare for action far faster than NATO could detect it, is some cause for disquiet.

[Perun]

1 hour ago, Mykola Saichuk said:

Norway and Sweden were the Soviet Army's (not Warsaw Pact) Northwest Theater of Operations. Here, the first operation is an offensive of the combinied army in Northern Norway with a sea landing. Actions for the longer term of the war have not been declassified.

 

Do you have map for this

[Mykola Saichuk]

8 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Well, we can see just that by looking at the Polish warplan on your website. There is barely a square corner of Europe they werent used.

That said, there is a pretty interesting book I found on google books called ' The Soviet High Command, 1967-1989' by Dale Roy Herspring. He had a fascinating chapter on the relationship between Marshal Ogarkov and Minister of Defence Dimitri Ustinov. He claims there is good evidence from the mid 70's on of an emerging intent in the USSR to try to do without nuclear weapons. That Ogarkov believed that moving towards highly mobile formatons, such at OMG's, to overrun the enemy's rear areas, was the way to unlock the NATO defence. That under such circumstances, it was probably better not to use nuclear  weapons at all, because it would just slow down the attack.

So, conceivably, by the early 1980's they might have forgone nuclear weapons right at the start. Or at least, that was the stated intent. They clearly had them in reserve just in case it didnt work out. On the day it probably just came down to how prepared NATO was. That the Pact could prepare for action far faster than NATO could detect it, is some cause for disquiet.

No, this is Herspring theorizing. It was only about increasing the non-nuclear period of combat operations. Because of this, the amount of ammunition in the warehouses of the Group of Soviet Forces in Germany was doubled. Now after the battles for Severodonetsk and Bakhmut I can say that these calculations were unjustified. Nuclear weapons would have been used no later than the 5th day of the operation. For example, Ogarkov thought that to break through NATO defenses in Germany would need 11.4 thousand 152-mm shells per day for the troops of one front. The weaker Ukrainian defenses withstood 20,000 shells per day for several weeks. By the way, at the 1981 exercise in Belarus, cautious conclusions were made about the shortage of shells, weakness of logistics, etc. But nothing was done. In 2022 the Russians repeated these conclusions from the 1981 exercise.

[Mykola Saichuk]

8 hours ago, Perun said:

Do you have map for this

Yes, I plan on putting it on the website

[Stuart Galbraith]

12 minutes ago, Mykola Saichuk said:

No, this is Herspring theorizing. It was only about increasing the non-nuclear period of combat operations. Because of this, the amount of ammunition in the warehouses of the Group of Soviet Forces in Germany was doubled. Now after the battles for Severodonetsk and Bakhmut I can say that these calculations were unjustified. Nuclear weapons would have been used no later than the 5th day of the operation. For example, Ogarkov thought that to break through NATO defenses in Germany would need 11.4 thousand 152-mm shells per day for the troops of one front. The weaker Ukrainian defenses withstood 20,000 shells per day for several weeks. By the way, at the 1981 exercise in Belarus, cautious conclusions were made about the shortage of shells, weakness of logistics, etc. But nothing was done. In 2022 the Russians repeated these conclusions from the 1981 exercise.

Zapad 81? That's very interesting, I've not heard that. Is there a report on it?

There was an interesting CIA report that noted a significant  increase in GSFG logistics formations in the DDR, including replacement of older trucks. Otoh, the estimate of resources in them was at best a guesstimate, particularly  the amount of soft stores they stockpiled.

Herspring, that's a new one on me.

 

[Mykola Saichuk]

On 8/19/2023 at 7:56 PM, Stuart Galbraith said:

Zapad 81? That's very interesting, I've not heard that. Is there a report on it?

There was an interesting CIA report that noted a significant  increase in GSFG logistics formations in the DDR, including replacement of older trucks. Otoh, the estimate of resources in them was at best a guesstimate, particularly  the amount of soft stores they stockpiled.

Herspring, that's a new one on me.

 

yes, I have an official report "Zapad-81".

"Top secret" has already been canceled.

 

Edited September 10, 2023 by Mykola Saichuk

[Stuart Galbraith]

I really must make a serious effort to learn Russian this time, Im seriously missing out.

 

[Perun]

1 hour ago, Mykola Saichuk said:

yes, I have an official report "Zapad-81".

"Top secret" has already been canceled.

Interesting material 🙂

[Perun]

"‘Warsaw Pact Military Doctrines in the 70s and 80s: Findings in the East German Archives’, Comparative Strategy Vol. 12 No. 4 (Oct.-Dec. 1993), pp. 437-457." by Beatrice Heuser

 

https://www.academia.edu/keypass/RmgrRmhxYWZXbFVGR1IzR2wrWi9ySTJPYmFNVHZYZ1lnaUt0Z1ZQVFU0OD0tLWxvREtQck40RHNEd29mWERXUlJKNGc9PQ==--ad52002cb71d423d969ff81c5eccc25696129b77/t/vqxE-Rhq5sJm-62TcA/resource/work/10989785/_Warsaw_Pact_Military_Doctrines_in_the_70s_and_80s_Findings_in_the_East_German_Archives_Comparative_Strategy_Vol_12_No_4_Oct_Dec_1993_pp_437_457?email_work_card=title

[Mykola Saichuk]

I heard there are no operational plans in the NVA DDR archives. 😞 They were destroyed beforehand.  The Soviet plans were super-secret. The Soviet command did not reveal its real plans to the Allies. The Allies could only know the role assigned to them by the Soviet command. For example, the commanders of both East German armies did not know the combat missions of their neighbors, the Soviet tank armies. Chief of Intelligence Markus Wolf wrote in his memoirs that they were well aware of the locations and combat missions of U.S. nuclear weapons in the FRG, but knew nothing of Soviet nuclear weapons in the DDR. I have read similar statements in the memoirs of Polish and Czech generals.

[lucklucky]

On 8/19/2023 at 5:39 PM, Mykola Saichuk said:

. For example, Ogarkov thought that to break through NATO defenses in Germany would need 11.4 thousand 152-mm shells per day for the troops of one front.

I found  difficult to believe such low number. 

I just read recently about Vittorio Veneto battle in WW1 and Italian army fired more than 300000 artillery rounds per day.