UK agrees mutual security deals with Finland and Sweden

[Josh]

37 minutes ago, Angrybk said:

Interesting to see Hawley somehow out-douchebagging himself 

He even managed to out-douche Rand Paul.

[Angrybk]

4 hours ago, Josh said:

He even managed to out-douche Rand Paul.

His editorial below. It looks like he’s concerned that opening up NATO to Finland and Sweden is bad because then we would be obligated to defend them (in the obviously extremely likely case of Sweden or Finland being involved in a war in which no other existing member of NATO is involved  )https://nationalinterest.org/feature/why-i-won’t-vote-add-sweden-and-finland-nato-203925

Edited August 4, 2022 by Angrybk

[glenn239]

Yes, if there is one thing that American history has taught us, it's the critical nature of Finland to American national security.

There's a strong Jeffersonian trend in the Right in US that considers many recent American allies to be posers, hangers on, and groupies, that are trying to leverage American power for their own interests, hence the fact that the speech has gone viral.  When it comes to Finland and Sweden, these are longstanding EU members and responsible partners in the Western club in which their participation in NATO is good to close a loop where part of the EU was outside of NATO, hence the fact that only 1 vote went against.

Edited August 5, 2022 by glenn239

[Yama]

Part of the EU is still outside NATO...

[Mistral]

It seems the Tsar just bought the niet to admission of Sweden and Finland from the Sultan. Good to see NATO being stronger together or whatever the catchphrase is.

https://www.ft.com/content/fbdf2cd7-ce76-4ac7-910f-517f14bc0222

[glenn239]

6 hours ago, Mistral said:

It seems the Tsar just bought the niet to admission of Sweden and Finland from the Sultan. Good to see NATO being stronger together or whatever the catchphrase is.

https://www.ft.com/content/fbdf2cd7-ce76-4ac7-910f-517f14bc0222

I just did a quick google on the status of negotiations with Turkey and it seems that no progress has been made.  I'm having a hard time balancing the stated interest of Finland and Sweden joining NATO with the apparent lack of progress to reaching that end. 

[Stuart Galbraith]

On 8/5/2022 at 1:29 PM, glenn239 said:

Yes, if there is one thing that American history has taught us, it's the critical nature of Finland to American national security.

There's a strong Jeffersonian trend in the Right in US that considers many recent American allies to be posers, hangers on, and groupies, that are trying to leverage American power for their own interests, hence the fact that the speech has gone viral.  When it comes to Finland and Sweden, these are longstanding EU members and responsible partners in the Western club in which their participation in NATO is good to close a loop where part of the EU was outside of NATO, hence the fact that only 1 vote went against.

Americans ALWAYS thing that. Its not exactly a new trend in American politics. Its a reason why the Franco-American alliance floundered, they figured the French were trying to drag them into a war against the British, something decidedly against their own interest. Its absolutely nothing new for them to feel this way.

In the end its just one shitstirer against the tide, and once again, you are making mountains out of molehills.

As for Erdogan, it will come down to whether it wants fighter planes and tanks that work, or whether he prefers to buy off Russia. That logic may take a while to enter his increasingly senile mind, but it will sink in eventually. The thing about playing a pain in the ass, both sides get bored eventually.

[Josh]

Erdogan will be brought to heel or his successor will be instead. Militarily and economically he’s a small fish in a big pond siding with an opponent nation. His economy will likely fall apart due to his own mismanagement; it would probably take a fairly minor effort on the part of the EU/US to ferment hyper inflation that damages the country for years. Militarily their manned air force is US supplied and maintained; if they want to buy Russian or Chinese they are welcome to. But the Russians seem occupied at the moment and it isn’t clear  that Turkey could afford a 1:1 replacement of all of its fighter aircraft with Chinese analogs.

Edited August 6, 2022 by Josh

[Sardaukar]

USMC guys are staying longer and longer. Maybe they like women and beer here (probably not high prices, tho...)

https://yle.fi/news/3-12636751

A unit from the United States Marine Corps’ 2nd Marine Logistics Group will train with Finnish units over the coming autumn months, the Finnish Navy announced on Friday.

According to that, they are staying 2 months.

[Mistral]

Seems only Russia, oups meant Turkey left to give the go ahead

 

[Sardaukar]

Finland is apparently making big GMLRS buy from USA.

https://www.dsca.mil/press-media/major-arms-sales/finland-guided-multiple-launch-rocket-systems-gmlrs

The Government of Finland has requested to buy one hundred fifty (150) M30A1 Guided Multiple Launch Rocket System (GMLRS) Alternative Warhead (AW) (Steel Case), or M30A2 Guided Multiple Launch Rocket System (GMLRS) Alternative Warhead (AW) Missile Pods with Insensitive Munitions Propulsion System (IMPS), or a combination of both; and two hundred fifty (250) M31A1 GMLRS Unitary (GMLRS-U) Warhead (Steel Case), or M31A2 GMLRS-U IMPS, or a combination of both. Also included is a Quality Assurance Team (QAT); transportation services; and other related elements of program and logistics support. The total estimated cost is $535 million.

Those are 6 rocket pods for MLRS, so total number of rockets is 2400. That'd make 2400 rockets, making Finland second largest GMLRS user in world after USA. 

Edited November 7, 2022 by Sardaukar

[Josh]

Makes sense. If there's any weapon that really lived up to the hype this war I think it would be HIMARS. It's a very cost effective way of making a Russian invasion expensive, especially if you have them from the get go. How many launchers does Finland have?

[Sardaukar]

5 minutes ago, Josh said:

Makes sense. If there's any weapon that really lived up to the hype this war I think it would be HIMARS. It's a very cost effective way of making a Russian invasion expensive, especially if you have them from the get go. How many launchers does Finland have?

28 so far.

To add, previous purchases have been about 500 rockets. These 2400 are additional. 

240 of those previously purchased are ER GMLRS.

Edited November 7, 2022 by Sardaukar

[Huba]

16 minutes ago, Sardaukar said:

28 so far.

To add, previous purchases have been about 500 rockets. These 2400 are additional. 

240 of those previously purchased are ER GMLRS.

Do you have any idea about the delivery times for these? I guess with the war going on, there hardly is any spare production capacity for GMLRS - main reason why Poland went with K239 Kimchi.

Edited November 7, 2022 by Huba

[Sardaukar]

12 minutes ago, Huba said:

Do you have any idea about the delivery times for these? I guess with the war going on, there hardly is any spare production capacity for GMLRS - main reason why Poland went with K239 Kimchi.

Some were bought 2016. Some will be delivered straight from US Army stockpile, rest from 2024 onwards. 

On related thing, we still have unused option for 38 more K9 Thunder SPGs. 58 has been bought so far, I wonder if we are getting rest too.

Edited November 7, 2022 by Sardaukar

[Yama]

5 hours ago, Josh said:

Makes sense. If there's any weapon that really lived up to the hype this war I think it would be HIMARS. It's a very cost effective way of making a Russian invasion expensive, especially if you have them from the get go. How many launchers does Finland have?

Also, Finnish M270 fleet has so far been noteworthy for almost complete lack of ammunition. Especially as ATACMS acquisition was given up few years ago.

However, atm we really don't have recon assets to make most out of it from long range rockets. For starters, FDF has almost no drones.

[Sardaukar]

2 hours ago, Yama said:

Also, Finnish M270 fleet has so far been noteworthy for almost complete lack of ammunition. Especially as ATACMS acquisition was given up few years ago.

However, atm we really don't have recon assets to make most out of it from long range rockets. For starters, FDF has almost no drones.

That has been remedied:

https://yle.fi/news/3-12400277

The Finnish Defence Forces (FDF) announced on Monday it is seeking suitable suppliers of unmanned aerial systems (UAS), also referred to as drones, to be used for intelligence gathering purposes.

The FDF said plans to acquire 1,000 to 2,000 UAS, in a two-year acquisition at a cost of around 14 million euros.

Also, Orbiter drones have already been bought some years ago to augment Ranger drones. So "almost no drones" is not entirely true. 

[Josh]

11 hours ago, Yama said:

Also, Finnish M270 fleet has so far been noteworthy for almost complete lack of ammunition. Especially as ATACMS acquisition was given up few years ago.

However, atm we really don't have recon assets to make most out of it from long range rockets. For starters, FDF has almost no drones.

It seems likely NATO would provide the ISR if Finland doesn’t get around to it, though I’d definitely want a robust UAV force in this day and age.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Britain to sign new security deal with Japan in December.

https://www.ft.com/content/6ea15304-551b-4161-af6c-38cccf56d40d?shareType=nongift

 

[Sardaukar]

5 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Britain to sign new security deal with Japan in December.

https://www.ft.com/content/6ea15304-551b-4161-af6c-38cccf56d40d?shareType=nongift

 

UK and Japan were quite close during 1920s. Even buildings of Etajima Naval Academy were made in UK style. 

[Stuart Galbraith]

Yeah, we are old pals.

[Sardaukar]

Back to UAV/UAS/MUAS:

FDF started to buy Orbiter 2B MUAS already in 2012, first batch was 55 systems (note that system  can consist of several drones, number of drones was not specified, unofficial source states 250 drones).

https://defense-update.com/20120503_aeronautics-to-supply-finland-with-55-orbiter-mini-uav-systems.html

At a maximum takeoff weight below 10kg, this electrically powered aircraft, Orbiter uses a classical 3 meter span flying-wing design, to stay in the air on a four hour mission, at a range of 30-80 km, and a ceiling up to 18,000 ft, carrying a nose mounted stabilized electro-optical payload (STAMP) provided by Aeronautics’ subsidiary Controp(Aeronautics owns 51 percent of the company while Rafael owns 49 percent). With the Orbiter’s payload capacity it can carry one payload on a mission – either the daylight, thermal or thermal-zoom variants of the STAMP, weighing up to 1.2 kg. Aeronautics has recently demonstrated the support of the Controp M-STAMP multi-sensor payload (1.2kg) carrying both CCD and a thermal imager. With this advanced payload the Orbiter supports advanced observations modes, including inertial target tracking, hold or point to coordinate, scan or mosaic modes and ‘pilot window’ support.

System has also been used a lot in armoured exercises etc. with good effect.

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bil1T-CAdZb/?hl=fi 

What Finland does not have yet is UCAVs (combat drones). Some rumours are that there is interest to some like e.g. Switchblade. 

 

 

[Yama]

On 11/8/2022 at 5:23 AM, Sardaukar said:

That has been remedied:

https://yle.fi/news/3-12400277

The Finnish Defence Forces (FDF) announced on Monday it is seeking suitable suppliers of unmanned aerial systems (UAS), also referred to as drones, to be used for intelligence gathering purposes.

The FDF said plans to acquire 1,000 to 2,000 UAS, in a two-year acquisition at a cost of around 14 million euros.

Also, Orbiter drones have already been bought some years ago to augment Ranger drones. So "almost no drones" is not entirely true. 

"Almost no drones" refers to current situation, our small Ranger fleet is outdated and probably at the end of its service life.

FDF has taken the view that it will observe the UAV development and acquires them when they are mature. This was a risk, though, as we might have been caught pants down. Of course, Air Force and Navy 'megaprojects' eating all the acquisition funds and political capital doesn't help.

[Sardaukar]

2 minutes ago, Yama said:

"Almost no drones" refers to current situation, our small Ranger fleet is outdated and probably at the end of its service life.

FDF has taken the view that it will observe the UAV development and acquires them when they are mature. This was a risk, though, as we might have been caught pants down. Of course, Air Force and Navy 'megaprojects' eating all the acquisition funds and political capital doesn't help.

As said before, there is quite a fleet of Orbiter 2Bs, that are regularly used in major exercises. Numbers vary from unofficial sources from original 250 to 500.

Edited November 9, 2022 by Sardaukar

[Sardaukar]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTAYm64jv9

Kind of interesting take.