UK agrees mutual security deals with Finland and Sweden

[Stuart Galbraith]

1 hour ago, TrustMe said:

After the breakup of the USSR, Ukraine kept a number of tactical nukes. But after diplomatic pressure from the US and UK, they agreed to give the nukes to Russia as it was decided that only Russia would retain the use of both strategic and tactical nukes, nuclear powered ships etc... 

In return the UK made assurances that if Russia attacked Ukraine then British forces would intervene to stop them. When Russia invaded Crimera in 2014 the UK government did nothing even after they had agreed to stop them.

Oh, you mean the Budapest memorandum, that was 1993/94 iirc.

Besides, it did count for something. Its one reason why Britain, first among all the Europeans, started arming them to the teeth with RPG's. We were not obligated to fight for them, but the terms of the memorandum, if it counts for anything, said we would support them to guarantee their territorial boundaries. Which by and large, we have.

You should probably have a look at whom the other people that signed the deal were...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances

•  Belarus
•  Kazakhstan
•  Ukraine
•  Russia
•  United States
•  United Kingdom
•  France
•  China

[Sardaukar]

Amusing quotes from Finnish president and Minister of Defence meeting today with Swedish counterparts plus king and crown prince:

Tietynlainen mutkattomuus myös korostui verantakeskustelussa. Puolustusministeri Antti Kaikkonen (kesk) sanoi tavanneensa Ruotsin puolustusministeri Peter Hultqvistin kuluneen kolmen kuukauden aikana 20 kertaa. Koko puolustusministeriaikanaan hän on tavannut ruotsalaiskollegansa 60 kertaa.

– Elättekö te yhdessä, Niinistö kysyi.

Koko pöytäseurue Bydéniä, kuningas Kaarle XVI Kustaata ja prinssi Carl Philpiä myöten puhkesi nauruun.

– Minun pitää sanoa, että melkein kyllä. Sitä vaimonikin kysyy, Kaikkonen vastasi.

Translation:

A certain degree of uncomplicatedness was also highlighted in the veranda debate. Defense Minister Antti Kaikkonen (Central) said he had met with Swedish Defense Minister Peter Hultqvist 20 times in the past three months. Throughout his time as Minister of Defense, he has met with his Swedish counterpart 60 times. - Do you live together, Niinistö asked. The whole table party, including Bydén (Commander of Swedish Defence Forces), King Charles XVI, and Prince Carl Philp, laughed. - I have to say, almost yes. That's what my wife asks, Kaikkonen replied.

[bojan]

Wasn't there supposed to be a referendum in Finland about joining NATO or I am badly informed?

[Yama]

No, it was proposed every now and then but most politicians were unhappy with the idea. Referendums are avoided unless the result is what the powers hope. This is why we never had Euro referendum, for example.

Edited May 18, 2022 by Yama

[Yama]

6 hours ago, Sardaukar said:

Finland and Sweden sign some agreements:

Implementing Arrangement for Joint Procurement of Small Arms Family

Also agreement about NLAWs, Carl Gustav 84s and AT4 Anti-tank weapons, for having common instead of separate purchases. Also ammunition and training equipment purchases.

Carl Gustavs? I don't think we would be buying that.

[Sardaukar]

On 5/18/2022 at 9:30 PM, Yama said:

Carl Gustavs? I don't think we would be buying that.

Never say never... 

https://valtioneuvosto.fi/-/suomi-ja-ruotsi-laajentavat-yhteistyota-puolustusmateriaalin-hankinnoissa

In Finnish, but those things are mentioned. CG 84 is actually very good weapon. 

Implementing Arrangement for Joint Procurement of Small Arms Family -toimeenpanoasiakirja käynnistää valmistelut Suomen ja Ruotsin yhteishankinnaksi käsiaseperheestä, johon kuuluvat seuraavat nimikkeet: rynnäkkökiväärit, kerta- ja sarja-automaattiset kiväärit, henkilökohtaiset suoja-aseet, kertalaukaisutoimiset tarkkuuskiväärit ja sotilashaulikot. Mahdolliset tulevat hankinnat edellyttävät erillistä päätöstä.

Implementing Arrangement for Joining the Framework Agreement Anti-Tank Systems -toimeenpanoasiakirja puolestaan antaa Suomelle mahdollisuuden käyttää Ruotsin puolustusmateriaalilaitoksen ja Saab Dynamics AB:n välistä puitesopimusta panssarintorjunta-aseistusta koskien. Puitesopimus kattaa NLAW-ohjukset, Carl-Gustav 84 -singot, AT4-kertasingot ja ampumatarvikkeet sekä koulutusvälineet näihin aseisiin. Mahdolliset puitesopimuksen mukaiset hankintapäätökset edellyttävät erillistä päätöstä.

Translation:

The Implementing Arrangement for the Joint Procurement of Small Arms Family launches preparations for the joint procurement of a handgun family by Finland and Sweden, which includes the following items: assault rifles, single and full-automatic rifles, personal protective weapons, single-shot sniper rifles and military shotguns. Any future acquisitions will require a separate decision.

The Implementing Arrangement for Joining the Framework Agreement, on the other hand, allows Finland to use the framework agreement between the Swedish Armaments Agency and Saab Dynamics AB regarding anti-tank armaments. The framework agreement covers NLAW missiles, Carl-Gustav 84 AT weapons, AT4 disposable AT weapons and ammunition, as well as training equipment for these weapons. Any procurement decisions under the framework agreement will require a separate decision.

Edited May 19, 2022 by Sardaukar

[Yama]

21 hours ago, Sardaukar said:

Never say never... 

https://valtioneuvosto.fi/-/suomi-ja-ruotsi-laajentavat-yhteistyota-puolustusmateriaalin-hankinnoissa

In Finnish, but those things are mentioned. CG 84 is actually very good weapon.

I'm sure it is, but it is a legacy system for which we have no legacy. We have M72, Apilas, NLAW and so on, where it would fit and who would use it in lieau of what?

[John T]

8 hours ago, Yama said:

I'm sure it is, but it is a legacy system for which we have no legacy. We have M72, Apilas, NLAW and so on, where it would fit and who would use it in lieau of what?

as I got it:

Sweden got an framework agreement, Finland invited to use the same legal agreement by adding an extension, quick and simple.
No need to buy anything, and to make a new agreement excluding the CG would just feed lawers.

 

cheers

[Sardaukar]

13 hours ago, Yama said:

I'm sure it is, but it is a legacy system for which we have no legacy. We have M72, Apilas, NLAW and so on, where it would fit and who would use it in lieau of what?

It actually is relevant and has some interesting ammunition. 

Heavy thing though, but multi-use. 

[bojan]

It is a platoon level weapon. Where it competes with NLAW. But is useful in direct mode vs both armor and infantry, unlike NLAW. Choices, choices.

Edited May 21, 2022 by bojan

[TrustMe]

The US used the CG in Afghanistan against infantry.

[Argus]

I should also imagine CG is a lot cheaper per round than NLAW or any other guided missile system, more compact too both per round and overall. 

[Sardaukar]

OK, steps taken:

https://www.foreign.senate.gov/press/ranking/release/risch-menendez-colleagues-applaud-committee-passage-of-resolution-in-support-of-finland-sweden-joining-nato

WASHINGTON – U.S. Senators Jim Risch (R-Idaho) and Bob Menendez (D-N.J.), ranking member and chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Jeanne Shaheen (D-N.H.), Ron Johnson (R-Wis.), Ben Cardin (D-Md.), and Chris Coons (D-Del.), today applauded committee passage of their resolution ( S.Res.646) in support of Finland’s and Sweden’s accession to NATO. 

Only one abstaining was Rand Paul. Not sure what his issue is, maybe someone more inclined to US politics might chime in. 

Basically, we Finns are happy (apart those few who are not, but they are few). 

 

[JWB]

3 hours ago, Sardaukar said:

Rand Paul

Is against any NATO expansion.

[Yama]

4 hours ago, Sardaukar said:

Only one abstaining was Rand Paul. Not sure what his issue is, maybe someone more inclined to US politics might chime in. 

He's a weirdo, who cares.

In related news, Erdogan has now finally flipped, or then he is really holding to his end of secret deal with Putin. He not only demanded turning over 'terrorists', he also insists for Finnish and Swedish state medias to "stop interviewing terrorists". Any extradition is a judicial matter and not controlled by politicians, and it would be extremely improper for politicians to start interfering with the media output. But perhaps it is par for course for Erdogan so maybe he assumes it works same way here...

[Josh]

3 hours ago, JWB said:

Is against any NATO expansion.

Random Paul just tends to vote down everything. He doesn’t really have dogma outside obstruction for obstruction sake.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Seems fitting really, he is the Erdogan of the Senate.

[Josh]

2 hours ago, Yama said:

He's a weirdo, who cares.

In related news, Erdogan has now finally flipped, or then he is really holding to his end of secret deal with Putin. He not only demanded turning over 'terrorists', he also insists for Finnish and Swedish state medias to "stop interviewing terrorists". Any extradition is a judicial matter and not controlled by politicians, and it would be extremely improper for politicians to start interfering with the media output. But perhaps it is par for course for Erdogan so maybe he assumes it works same way here...

The Sultan is posturing. He likely won’t give in unless he is bribed or punished, though with the lira dropping like a rock he’s in a pretty vulnerable position.

[Mistral]

15 hours ago, Josh said:

The Sultan is posturing. He likely won’t give in unless he is bribed or punished, though with the lira dropping like a rock he’s in a pretty vulnerable position.

Nah, he is using the same playbook as Putin, I realy think he will make a run for some island this year.

 

 

[bojan]

In which case we will see if NATO and EU stand about principles or not.

[Josh]

4 hours ago, Mistral said:

Nah, he is using the same playbook as Putin, I realy think he will make a run for some island this year.

 

 

Absolutely not. Any western sanctions would cut him off at his knees. I don’t think NATO/EU will overtly punish him economically for denying Sweden and Finland but I think any land grab would cause them to fall onto Turkey like a ton of bricks.

[bojan]

10 minutes ago, Josh said:

...but I think any land grab would cause them to fall onto Turkey like a ton of bricks...

Like the one in Syria?

[Josh]

11 minutes ago, bojan said:

Like the one in Syria?

Mea Culpa, I should have specified taking land in Europe or specifically from Greece. Syria isn’t an EU or NATO member.

[BansheeOne]

Turkey reportedly agrees to NATO accession of Finland and Sweden. That went quickly; I expected about a year of pissing and moaning.

[Josh]

Waiting for confirmation but it wouldn’t surprise me. NATO in general and the US in particular have a lot of leverage.