Jump to content

UK agrees mutual security deals with Finland and Sweden


Recommended Posts

Some are bit upset about H&K decision to take rifle competition into court:

Fucking German weapons industry (H&K) that cannot build shit in time for real war and knows nothing about security of supply is literally threatening Finnish security by taking to court re procurement of superior SAKO rifles. #zeitenwendeforcrooks

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 529
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Posted Images

On 7/21/2023 at 12:55 AM, bojan said:

Welcome to capitalism.

Missed communism much?

Just kidding, everyone nowadays is bitching about something (me included).

Life in army was so much easier before internet...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/16/2023 at 10:00 PM, Sardaukar said:

Since you commented... ;)

I'm sorry but as far as i understand it was you who have kindly provided comment on my post about Turkey doing business as expecxted. But since meaning of your comment is not clear for me, i would like to get explanation of it, please (of course, it is up to you to do it or not, i can't insist).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

MLRS Upgrade:

https://www.dsca.mil/press-media/major-arms-sales/finland-m270a2-multiple-launch-rocket-system-mlrs-upgrade

WASHINGTON, August 1, 2023 - The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to the Government of Finland of a M270A2 Multiple Launch Rocket System (MLRS) upgrade and related equipment for an estimated cost of $395 million. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale today.

The Government of Finland has requested to buy the M270A2 upgrade for its M270A1 Multiple Launch Rocket Systems (MLRS). The upgrade will include: intercom systems; radio communication mounts; machine gun mounts; battle management system vehicle integration kit; publications for MLRS; spares; services; support equipment; and other related elements of program and logistics support. The estimated total cost is $395 million.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Josh said:

This this the upgrade that enables PrSM and GMLRS-ER, right?

Yes.

Though we already have ordered 240 of GMLRS-ER before, so I guess the upgrade is mainly for PrSM (would have been silly to buy 240 of GMLRS-ER AW without capability to use them (though those will be delivered in 2024)).  

Edited by Sardaukar
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/21/2023 at 12:55 AM, bojan said:

Welcome to capitalism.

Actually term "capitalism" is slightly misleading. All economies are capitalism, since capital basically means money and not many systems (not even socialist/communist ones) work without money.

Totally correct term would be "market economy". :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

55 minutes ago, Sardaukar said:

Actually term "capitalism" is slightly misleading. All economies are capitalism, since capital basically means money and not many systems (not even socialist/communist ones) work without money.

Totally correct term would be "market economy". :)

nerd-emoji.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, wendist said:

What kind of resources does Finland have in this field? Do you have ELINT aircrafts too or do you rely on ground based sensors?

Casa C 295M-plane with Dragon Shield system.

We have always had ELINT planes. Previously couple of Fokker F.27 modifications. 

Edited by Sardaukar
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

nerd-emoji.jpg

 

Now now, just ship us those David's Slings we need or we will invade. We have been quite a good customers for long time. ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Sardaukar said:

We have always had ELINT planes. Previously couple of Fokker F.27 modifications. 

I guess performing electronic eavesdropping means those planes were nosy Fokkers.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Ivanhoe said:

I guess performing electronic eavesdropping means those planes were nosy Fokkers.

 

Your country hired quite a few of our WW II long-range recon guys to sneak to have a peak into Soviet Union in 50's. 

https://www.ts.fi/uutiset/1074144978

Google Translate and you find some interesting things.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, Sardaukar said:

Your country hired quite a few of our WW II long-range recon guys to sneak to have a peak into Soviet Union in 50's. 

https://www.ts.fi/uutiset/1074144978

Google Translate and you find some interesting things.

Scope of this operations were not limited to former Nazis from Finland - as Nazi collaborators from Baltics (including those involved in mass killing of local jews) were also hired. Quite possible, Finns were integrated into the same groups

Yandex-translated from Как британская разведка пыталась возглавить "лесных братьев" в Прибалтике? | История и культура Евразии | Дзен (dzen.ru)

"How did British intelligence try to lead the "forest brothers" in the Baltic States?
June 7, 2021

In 1949, the Secret Intelligence Service of Great Britain (SIS) had a very great interest in the anti-Soviet underground in the Baltic States. James Bonds needed intelligence information on the USSR.

"Secret Intelligence Service of the British Foreign Ministry", (SIS / MI-6) (Eng. Secret Intelligence Service, SIS / Military Intelligence, MI6) — the foreign intelligence service of Great Britain.
Since 1949, the SIS began the reconnaissance operation "Jungle" (Jungle). Its head was the Director of the North European Department of the SIS, G. Carr.

A. McKibbin, the head of the "Baltic Section" of the Northern European Department of MI6, was directly responsible for them in 1944-1954. He, with the help of a number of employees, informants and friends of G. Carr, created an extensive spy network. The recruitment of agents and the details of Operation Jungle were handled by 4 advisory groups formed at the intelligence school in Chelsea (the historic district of London, formerly its suburb) — Polish and 3 Baltic. The Estonian one was headed by former SS Standartenfuhrer A. Rebane (code name "Robert"). Latvian — former officer of the "Latvian Legion of the Luftwaffe" R. Silaris. Lithuanian — Professor of history S. Zhimantas (behind this name was the organizer of the Holocaust in Vilnius in 1941, former associate professor of Vilnius University S. Zhakevicius) - M.Krysin's monograph "LURSEN-S", "GOLDEN Eagle", "UNIVERSITY" AGAINST "JUNGLE". THE COLLAPSE OF THE BRITISH INTELLIGENCE OPERATION IN THE BALTIC STATES IN 1949-1956
The transfer of agents went by sea.

During Operation Jungle, with the support of the intelligence service of the British Navy, she initially used the Cuxhaven minesweeping detachment, subordinate to the "German Minesweeping Department" created by the British occupation authorities, which controlled the coastal waters of the land of Schleswig-Holstein - M.Krysin's monograph "LURSEN-S", "BERKUT", "UNIVERSITY" AGAINST the "JUNGLE". THE COLLAPSE OF THE BRITISH INTELLIGENCE OPERATION IN THE BALTIC STATES IN 1949-1956
The boat crews consisted of former sailors of the German Navy, who now served the British occupation authorities.

The Soviet counterintelligence was informed about Operation Jungle through a radio game that it had been playing with the British intelligence service since 1945. In November of that year, a group of saboteurs headed by A.Arnitis was arrested in Latvia, which was prepared by the British. The captured radio transmitter was used for the specified radio game.

The radio game was conducted by Major of the state Security of the Latvian SSR Ya.K.Lukashevich. The general management was carried out by the 2 Main Directorate (Counterintelligence) of the MGB of the USSR. The direct work with the agency was conducted by Major Ya .Bundulis.

A fictitious group of "forest brothers" "Maxis" and a group of underground "Robert" were created as a disinformation base.

On May 1, 1949, the first group of spies (6 people) was landed near Palanga led by a Lithuanian under the pseudonym "Tarvydas".
Palanga (lit. Palangà pronunciation (inf.), the stress in the Lithuanian name falls on the last syllable, zhem. Palonga is a resort town in the western part of Lithuania (Samogitia), located on the Baltic Sea coast. Administratively in the status of self-government of Lithuania. In 1995-2010 it was part of the now abolished Klaipeda County.
On May 7, 1949, they were arrested, and two members of the intelligence group were turned over <to cooperate with MGB>. They started hosting two radio games "Wave" and "Forest". With their help, 5 landings of British reconnaissance groups were brought to the ambush sites. 7 spies arrested.*

After that, the counterintelligence operation moved into the most acute phase - the arrested groups allegedly settled on the spot (in the group of "Maxim", which settled in the forest thickets). Then they allegedly launched an active recruitment activity and attracted local residents to cooperate.

These residents were sent to London to study at the intelligence school.
In total, the Latvian MGB introduced four Soviet counterintelligence officers to the London intelligence school. Three of his own — the previously mentioned A.J. Gaylitis, J. Klimkans ("Dubin"), M.J. Vitolins ("Tankman") — and one employee of the Lithuanian MGB — L.P. Shimonelis ("Shilaitis") - Vasilevskis J. Ginkluoti tautinio pasipriešinimo junginiai — SSRS (Latvijos SSR) ir Didžiosios Britanijos specialiûjû tarnyb ? operatyvini ? žaidim ? terpė (1945— 1956). // Genocidas ir rezistencija. Vilnius, 1997. Nr. 2. P. 95; Jürjo I. Op. cit. P. 256, 267.
Soviet counterintelligence gave the British full confidence that an extensive espionage network with a combat group was operating in the Baltic States. But as always, they made a mistake on the little things.

In April 1951, the British gave a task to take water samples at Tobol (Ural), since the British had information that there was a nuclear reactor there.

"The game ended abysmally because of a seemingly minor oversight," said retired Major General V.N. Udilov, a veteran of Soviet counterintelligence who completed his service as first deputy chief of the 2nd Main Directorate of the KGB. — ...Since there were no nuclear reactors there near the Tobol River, and the area was sparsely populated, they decided to direct the enemy's activities along the wrong path by disinformation, to force him to work idly. To do this, it was decided to add radioactive substances to the samples of water and silt taken from the Northern Urals… The game is over! It turns out that in a desire to please a KGB officer, comrades from the physical laboratory stuffed such doses of radiation into the sample that no living organisms could survive in the water, and the vegetation around would have to burn out for tens of kilometers."
The British realized that they were being deceived and began actively checking all those involved in Operation Jungle. There was no longer any trust on their part. They stopped sending new agents and equipment. And on June 22, 1956, the last radio message was sent that the agents in the Baltic States needed to stop communicating with the center in London.

So the active operational game was stopped, in which the Soviet special services initially behaved very well in the account, arresting all the agents sent. But they got carried away and broke into small things - exceeding the radiation doses in the samples, which was the reason for the termination of such a well-started operation."

*  - note relatively low number of agents taken alive, less then 2 from each group.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

By the way Sweden was also involved (from Как Запад в 50-е годы не поделил "лесных братьев" в Прибалтике (sputniknews.ru) )

"How the West did not divide the "forest brothers" in the Baltic States in the 50s
15:07 08/14/2017 (updated: 17:38 08/14/2017)

The Central Intelligence Agency of the United States declassified archival data that indicate that American and British intelligence services provided assistance to the Baltic nationalists in the 40-50s of the last century
VILNIUS, Aug 14 — Sputnik. Sensational data concerning the recently declassified archives of the US Central Intelligence Agency has been published by the Latvian news portal LSM.lv .

The published materials confirm that the American special services provided assistance to the Baltic ultranationalists in the 40-50s of the last century, and also report on the competition between the US and UK special services that appeared in the 50s.

Historian Oleg Khlobustov - Sputnik Lithuania
Historian: "forest brothers" are involved in the murders of 40 thousand people
on August 6, 2017, 13:29
The article tells that representatives of the British foreign intelligence service SIS (Secret Intelligence Service, also known as MI6) did not want to cede their sphere of influence in the Baltic States to the Americans.

"Each of the special services planned to operate independently in the Baltic States. The Americans were going to implement a plan to land agents in Kurzeme (Latvia) in order to support the "forest brothers". However, the operation did not take into account the interests of the British, and it was decided to curtail it. A secret meeting was convened in London to distribute the zones of activity," the article says.

The British told the Americans that they had a plan for a joint operation with the Swedish special services to support the "Kurzeme partisans" (this ultranationalist group is actually from the same system as the "forest brothers").

We are talking about the creation of a network of sabotage groups, which were led by representatives of British and Swedish intelligence. At the same time, one of the agents was operating on Estonian territory, and it was Estonia that MI6 considered as a springboard for the activities of nationalists against the USSR.

It is reported that the joint special operation of the CIA and MI6 to "save the forest brothers" began in the Baltic States in 1953.

The theme of "forest brothers"
In Lithuania, the "forest brothers" are positioned as freedom fighters. In 1944-1953, they actively fought against the Soviet government on the territory of the Baltic States. Many of them fought in the ranks of the national SS battalions, and during and after the Second World War they destroyed both prisoners of war and civilians, most of their victims are ethnic Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians. In Lithuania, 25 thousand people were killed and tortured by the "brothers", the main number of victims (about 80%) were civilians. More than one thousand of them are children.

In July, NATO posted an eight-minute documentary-game video on the Internet, where the "forest brothers" are represented by heroes engaged exclusively in the struggle for the independence of their countries from the Soviet Union and enjoyed broad support from the civilian population who wanted to restore statehood. The authors of the video also note that the spirit of the "forest brothers" lives in the modern special forces of the armed forces of the three Baltic countries.

The official representative of the Russian Foreign Ministry, Maria Zakharova, criticized the video and called the idea a "historical perversion." The diplomat expressed hope that the world community will correctly assess this "disgusting action".

Deputy Prime Minister of the Russian Federation Dmitry Rogozin also believes that "NATO countries have finally become insolent, glorifying the "forest brothers".

"The NATO video about the "forest brothers" killing our soldiers confirms that in the person of NATO we are dealing with the heirs of Hitler's shortfalls," Rogozin wrote on Twitter.

Lithuanian Facebook users on July 15-16 left negative reviews on the pages of the Russian Foreign Ministry and the Russian Embassy in Lithuania as part of an action under the hashtag "Kremlin, you can't rewrite our history," which was initiated by Lithuanian propagandist Andrius Tapinas. According to the Russian Foreign Ministry, the purpose of the action is to fit the unsightly facts about the atrocities of some Lithuanians against others under fictional events.

According to the ministry, this is another attempt to cast doubt on the results of the Second World War and promote the thesis of "cooperation between two totalitarian regimes — the USSR and Nazi Germany."

"We attribute all these speculations to historical fiction," the ministry said in a statement.

Earlier in Lithuania, the head of the investment and advertising department of the Vilnius City Hall was dismissed for a comment on a social network in which he indirectly expressed doubt about the rightness of the "Lithuanian partisans" who called for the murders of collective farmers and heads of the authorities of the Lithuanian SSR."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/4/2023 at 12:56 PM, Roman Alymov said:

By the way Sweden was also involved (from Как Запад в 50-е годы не поделил "лесных братьев" в Прибалтике (sputniknews.ru) )

"How the West did not divide the "forest brothers" in the Baltic States in the 50s
15:07 08/14/2017 (updated: 17:38 08/14/2017)

The Central Intelligence Agency of the United States declassified archival data that indicate that American and British intelligence services provided assistance to the Baltic nationalists in the 40-50s of the last century
VILNIUS, Aug 14 — Sputnik. Sensational data concerning the recently declassified archives of the US Central Intelligence Agency has been published by the Latvian news portal LSM.lv .

The published materials confirm that the American special services provided assistance to the Baltic ultranationalists in the 40-50s of the last century, and also report on the competition between the US and UK special services that appeared in the 50s.

Historian Oleg Khlobustov - Sputnik Lithuania
Historian: "forest brothers" are involved in the murders of 40 thousand people
on August 6, 2017, 13:29
The article tells that representatives of the British foreign intelligence service SIS (Secret Intelligence Service, also known as MI6) did not want to cede their sphere of influence in the Baltic States to the Americans.

"Each of the special services planned to operate independently in the Baltic States. The Americans were going to implement a plan to land agents in Kurzeme (Latvia) in order to support the "forest brothers". However, the operation did not take into account the interests of the British, and it was decided to curtail it. A secret meeting was convened in London to distribute the zones of activity," the article says.

The British told the Americans that they had a plan for a joint operation with the Swedish special services to support the "Kurzeme partisans" (this ultranationalist group is actually from the same system as the "forest brothers").

We are talking about the creation of a network of sabotage groups, which were led by representatives of British and Swedish intelligence. At the same time, one of the agents was operating on Estonian territory, and it was Estonia that MI6 considered as a springboard for the activities of nationalists against the USSR.

It is reported that the joint special operation of the CIA and MI6 to "save the forest brothers" began in the Baltic States in 1953.

The theme of "forest brothers"
In Lithuania, the "forest brothers" are positioned as freedom fighters. In 1944-1953, they actively fought against the Soviet government on the territory of the Baltic States. Many of them fought in the ranks of the national SS battalions, and during and after the Second World War they destroyed both prisoners of war and civilians, most of their victims are ethnic Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians. In Lithuania, 25 thousand people were killed and tortured by the "brothers", the main number of victims (about 80%) were civilians. More than one thousand of them are children.

In July, NATO posted an eight-minute documentary-game video on the Internet, where the "forest brothers" are represented by heroes engaged exclusively in the struggle for the independence of their countries from the Soviet Union and enjoyed broad support from the civilian population who wanted to restore statehood. The authors of the video also note that the spirit of the "forest brothers" lives in the modern special forces of the armed forces of the three Baltic countries.

The official representative of the Russian Foreign Ministry, Maria Zakharova, criticized the video and called the idea a "historical perversion." The diplomat expressed hope that the world community will correctly assess this "disgusting action".

Deputy Prime Minister of the Russian Federation Dmitry Rogozin also believes that "NATO countries have finally become insolent, glorifying the "forest brothers".

"The NATO video about the "forest brothers" killing our soldiers confirms that in the person of NATO we are dealing with the heirs of Hitler's shortfalls," Rogozin wrote on Twitter.

Lithuanian Facebook users on July 15-16 left negative reviews on the pages of the Russian Foreign Ministry and the Russian Embassy in Lithuania as part of an action under the hashtag "Kremlin, you can't rewrite our history," which was initiated by Lithuanian propagandist Andrius Tapinas. According to the Russian Foreign Ministry, the purpose of the action is to fit the unsightly facts about the atrocities of some Lithuanians against others under fictional events.

According to the ministry, this is another attempt to cast doubt on the results of the Second World War and promote the thesis of "cooperation between two totalitarian regimes — the USSR and Nazi Germany."

"We attribute all these speculations to historical fiction," the ministry said in a statement.

Earlier in Lithuania, the head of the investment and advertising department of the Vilnius City Hall was dismissed for a comment on a social network in which he indirectly expressed doubt about the rightness of the "Lithuanian partisans" who called for the murders of collective farmers and heads of the authorities of the Lithuanian SSR."

Seriously...

"Former Nazis"

"Ultra-nationalists".

Maybe if your esteemed country would stop invading independent countries, you might get some respect about your opinions.

So far, not so good track record. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Sardaukar said:

Seriously...

"Former Nazis"

"Ultra-nationalists".

Maybe if your esteemed country would stop invading independent countries, you might get some respect about your opinions.

So far, not so good track record. 

Thank you for your opinion, anyway most of this glorious freedom fighters were killed when attempring to infiltrate into USSR (probably, saving a lot of money for their British masters)  so no need to worry about this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Whereas Comrade Philby, who shopped them all was a good man, because he was a good communist and doing it all gratis, for the cause. Of course.

Ok, several things. Firstly, I dont know why Sputnik made a big deal out of that story, since its always been very well known since the 1960's that we were assisting nationalist groups. You could even see it as a topic in the 1967 movie 'The Billion Dollar Brain', or even 'Smiley's People' from 1982. In short its known. There was no revelation in it, unless it was being used as a cornerstone of the argument that it was being done in Ukraine.

In fact, as early as the 1950's there was a very good book on the Forest brothers written by one of their number Juozas Lukša. He described at that stage CIA report.  He was subsequently murdered by the NKVD. You ought to read it, before expounding at length about what they were.

They werent ultra nationalists. They were just nationalists, whom objected to their country being invaded and occupied. I seem to recall your Soviets getting a little ticked off about that kind of thing as well.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

... I dont know why Sputnik made a big deal out of that story...

Sputnik is tabloid.

Edited by bojan
Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 hours ago, Roman Alymov said:

Thank you for your opinion, anyway most of this glorious freedom fighters were killed when attempring to infiltrate into USSR (probably, saving a lot of money for their British masters)  so no need to worry about this.

British masters?

Isn't that "Pro-Western"? in your parlance...

Just that your terminology is amusing. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, bojan said:

Sputnik is tabloid.

Actually, Stuart's question makes sence: yes Sputnik is "tabloid" (media focused on topics that are known to attract audience attention), but why they believe the topic of foreign support of all this Nazi-related nationalist groups is likely to attract audience in Russia, after what might seems decades of Soviet propaganda about it?

    The answer is not so obvious: Soviet Union right from the begining whas constructed around the practice of dominating role of regional (mostly ethnic) Communist parties elites of union republics, while Russians were seen to be plaqued with schovinism and tsarist imperialism and were to significant degree suppressed (as founding fathers of USSR believed that giving Russian majority equal rights would result in USSR becoming new Russian Empire). Sometimes it was even taking grotesque forms, like well known case of Lenin (who was ethnic Russian from deep onside Russia, with very limited knowlege of problems of non-Russian region) defiantly scolded ethnic Georgian-Ossetian Stalin and Georgian Ordzhonikidze for Russian "great-power chauvinism" only because they did not bend before Georgian ethnic nationalism (unlike Lenin, they were experienced in this subject and foresee troubles in distant future). 

     By 1970th, as Communist ideology was slowly faiding out from real public life and becoming rhetoric-only, regional ethnoctaties were gaining more and more influende, and as role of ethnic Nazis were uncomfortable for them, it was not mentioned (for example, role of Baltic Nazis in mass killing of Jews and others, or role of Ukrainian nationalists in mass killings in Belarusia were completely removed from official history teaching). Then Perestroyka came, with complete domination of West in media and history. As result, for most of middle-age  Russians the very existance of this "local Soviet Nazis" is discovery and new hot topic, as well as their relations with Western intelligence services.

Edited by Roman Alymov
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...