UK agrees mutual security deals with Finland and Sweden

[Yama]

What do you need to 'worry' about? Macron has not broken any rules or basic principles of NATO.

[Sardaukar]

2 hours ago, Yama said:

AIUI, in NATO there were two competing views on whether try to bring Sweden & Finland in - East European view was that they are powerful European militaries (!) which have ability to reinforce defence of the Eastern Europe, most notably Baltic. That was one of the sticking points of former Estonian President Ilves, that Finland was 'freeriding' and not participating to defence of Baltic.

Another was Anglo-American view, which saw Finland and Sweden as insular and non-interventionistic nations which, as a part of NATO decisionmaking, would likely only hinder their own more global interests. However, the issue here was that if Finland and Sweden really wanted to join, it would be embarrassing to refuse them. Nordic countries are kind of 'Instagram Influencers' in global politics.

Actually you are quite wrong about Anglo-American view. Especially USA had actively encouraged Finland's participation in NATO since fall of Soviet Union.

Especially in 1995, when Finland did join EU, USA would have liked Finland in NATO too. Then Finland was reluctant, since it was seen that USA (and NATO) were saddling Finland with responsibility of defending Estonia too. Back then Estonian defence forces and plans to defend Baltic States were still in infancy. 

[Stuart Galbraith]

1 hour ago, Yama said:

What do you need to 'worry' about? Macron has not broken any rules or basic principles of NATO.

He is throttling the EU joint project to source 155mm ammunition to Ukraine. Thats not directly nato related, at the same time its a source of concern, for purely national prestige reasons I read.

[Sardaukar]

Sweden still has lot to do.

Their defence budget in 2020 was 1.16% of GDP, this year 1.4% and 2% is said to be achieved in 2028. 

[urbanoid]

 

[sunday]

Still not a war crime...

[Josh]

43 minutes ago, sunday said:

Still not a war crime...

...but I'd rather be pelted with incendiaries...

[Junior FO]

...

Edited September 23 by Junior FO

[bd1]

7 hours ago, Roman Alymov said:

 

     By the way, not sure non-Russian speakers have noticed in Putin's speech on the meeting with war reporter

  I have not seen it mentioned by Western experts (probably they are not aware) but every post-Soviet Russian is aware where the words "I am yours, bourgeois" are comming from: it is quoute from Soviet child movie made in 1964 after Arkady Gaidar's book published in 1935 - and this words are said by triator (who have betrayed in exchange for "a barrel of jam and a basket of cookies")  to his masters who have left him behind when retreating

Every Soviet-born person knows what this quote means.

So actually this words (unlikely to be written by speechwriter - i can't imagine speechwriter who dare to write text like this for Putin) are opening for us rare insight of what Putin himself is thinking: "In 1990th, we were ready to surrender our country to you in exchange for some personal benefits , but West have turned us away".

never heard of the book or film before .....

[Roman Alymov]

8 minutes ago, bd1 said:

never heard of the book or film before .....

The book is "Voennaya taina" ("Military secret") by Arkady Gaidar ( https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Военная_тайна_(повесть) )

Movie is below (originally it is small part of the book, "Story within story"  told to kids by their scout camp leader) 

 

[Sardaukar]

Apparently NATO is forming a new HQ for Nordic/Baltic in future. .

Remains if it'll be based in Sweden or Finland. 

[Yama]

8 hours ago, Sardaukar said:

Actually you are quite wrong about Anglo-American view. Especially USA had actively encouraged Finland's participation in NATO since fall of Soviet Union.

Especially in 1995, when Finland did join EU, USA would have liked Finland in NATO too. Then Finland was reluctant, since it was seen that USA (and NATO) were saddling Finland with responsibility of defending Estonia too. Back then Estonian defence forces and plans to defend Baltic States were still in infancy. 

Actually you're quite wrong. Of course in public USA would not openly discourage new applicants, especially quite prestigious Nordic countries (see my comments about 'influencers') but behind the scenes, USA was not encouraging it at all, as they saw it just not advancing their own agenda which were completely removed from Baltic. This was only speculated in public, until revealed in Wikileaks cables where Finland and Sweden were described as too 'ideologically naive' to benefit US in NATO.

[Yama]

8 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

He is throttling the EU joint project to source 155mm ammunition to Ukraine. Thats not directly nato related, at the same time its a source of concern, for purely national prestige reasons I read.

So what? He's still not breaking any obligations to North Atlantic Treaty.

It's only 'implied threat' if you're expecting NATO to be an informal alliance beyond the scope of the treaty. Which you shouldn't, and we certainly are not.

[Sardaukar]

2 hours ago, Yama said:

Actually you're quite wrong. Of course in public USA would not openly discourage new applicants, especially quite prestigious Nordic countries (see my comments about 'influencers') but behind the scenes, USA was not encouraging it at all, as they saw it just not advancing their own agenda which were completely removed from Baltic. This was only speculated in public, until revealed in Wikileaks cables where Finland and Sweden were described as too 'ideologically naive' to benefit US in NATO.

Not according to e.g. this: https://yle.fi/a/3-5321425

 

[X-Files]

8 hours ago, Roman Alymov said:

The book is "Voennaya taina" ("Military secret") by Arkady Gaidar ( https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Военная_тайна_(повесть) )

Movie is below (originally it is small part of the book, "Story within story"  told to kids by their scout camp leader) 

 

 

I had to look that one up - 

Voennaya Taina ("The Military Secret") is a Soviet-era game for children aged 7-9 that is pure propaganda. It combines a snakes-and-ladders type track with a story in the rule book that plays out through the illustrations along the track.

It has its roots in a Russian fairy-tale, and shows strapping young lad starting life placidly farming with his father, seeing his father go off to war on horseback and come back wounded, and then following in his footsteps.

He goes off to war, has his comrades in the lines betrayed to the fascists, survives capture and prison and eventually triumphs over both the fascist trio and the cigar-smoking capitalist giving orders behind the scenes.

Voennaya Taina | Board Game | BoardGameGeek

 

[Roman Alymov]

6 hours ago, X-Files said:

 

I had to look that one up - 

Voennaya Taina ("The Military Secret") is a Soviet-era game for children aged 7-9 that is pure propaganda. It combines a snakes-and-ladders type track with a story in the rule book that plays out through the illustrations along the track.

It has its roots in a Russian fairy-tale, and shows strapping young lad starting life placidly farming with his father, seeing his father go off to war on horseback and come back wounded, and then following in his footsteps.

He goes off to war, has his comrades in the lines betrayed to the fascists, survives capture and prison and eventually triumphs over both the fascist trio and the cigar-smoking capitalist giving orders behind the scenes.

Voennaya Taina | Board Game | BoardGameGeek

 

Not sure in what way board game is related to the topic, but as you wish.....

[Sardaukar]

Best comment on Twitter today about Biden's visit to Finland tomorrow July 13th:

"Since he is so old, what if he happens to die here? We'll be forever remembered as country where "Creepy Joe" conked out! "

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

Well at least they will be warmly remembered in the hearts of Republicans.

 

[urbanoid]

Are you sure? It would result in President Kamala.

[MiGG0]

55 minutes ago, urbanoid said:

Are you sure? It would result in President Kamala.

Just fyi "Kamala" in finnish means awfull/horrible 😁

[bd1]

14 hours ago, X-Files said:

 

I had to look that one up - 

Voennaya Taina ("The Military Secret") is a Soviet-era game for children aged 7-9 that is pure propaganda. It combines a snakes-and-ladders type track with a story in the rule book that plays out through the illustrations along the track.

It has its roots in a Russian fairy-tale, and shows strapping young lad starting life placidly farming with his father, seeing his father go off to war on horseback and come back wounded, and then following in his footsteps.

He goes off to war, has his comrades in the lines betrayed to the fascists, survives capture and prison and eventually triumphs over both the fascist trio and the cigar-smoking capitalist giving orders behind the scenes.

Voennaya Taina | Board Game | BoardGameGeek

 

oh and you should do quick tanknet search of the name ´arkady gaidar´. 

russian president quoting work of a homicidial maniac , in context that west does not understand him.

 

 this might be one of these unplanned moments from this conflict that just stays with one.

like wagner putchist tank stuck in circus gates

or russian soldier, codenamed ´cannibal´ doing social media video about his problems - that he is down to last 3 new recruits from 12 he started out

or, back in 2014 , worried ukrainian newspaper headline ´the desertation of ukrainian policemen to russian side has become global´ 

[Stuart Galbraith]

5 hours ago, urbanoid said:

Are you sure? It would result in President Kamala.

But think of the comedy possibilities!

[sunday]

6 hours ago, MiGG0 said:

Just fyi "Kamala" in finnish means awfull/horrible 😁

Sounds like ¡Qué mala! in Spanish, also.

[Ssnake]

4 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

But think of the comedy possibilities!

 

[Laser Shark]

On 7/11/2023 at 7:45 PM, Sardaukar said:

Apparently NATO is forming a new HQ for Nordic/Baltic in future. .

Remains if it'll be based in Sweden or Finland. 

It will be interesting to see what happens here, but I don't think Norway and Iceland will be particularly keen about leaving the HQ at Norfolk for one that is likely going to be more oriented towards the Baltics.