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Polish T-72's to Ukraine, Challenger 2's to backfill


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Challenger 2's will be operated by British tank crews. I highly doubt that IF this will happen, these tanks will be operated by Polish tank crews.

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Hasn't Poland ordered 250 M1* when the war began? They got 250 Leo II already and the same number of their domestic T-72 successor. 

Maintenance will get interesting if UK tanks are thrown into the mix. 

 

*They did. It's in the article I didn't read. 

Edited by Markus Becker
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19 hours ago, Markus Becker said:

Hasn't Poland ordered 250 M1* when the war began? They got 250 Leo II already and the same number of their domestic T-72 successor. 

Maintenance will get interesting if UK tanks are thrown into the mix. 

 

*They did. It's in the article I didn't read. 

The last I heard, they were to be operated by British crews.  Perhaps they mean British armoured regiments replacing Polish tank battalions?

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49 minutes ago, R011 said:

The last I heard, they were to be operated by British crews.  Perhaps they mean British armoured regiments replacing Polish tank battalions?

I think there is some misunderstanding here. What we gave Ukraine, were our tanks from reserve stocks most likely. However active tank battalions were most likely not stripped from their tanks. Of course I can be wrong, because there is strict OPSEC kept around the matter, however I really doubt all our T-72's were given away. At least for now.

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1 hour ago, R011 said:

The last I heard, they were to be operated by British crews.  Perhaps they mean British armoured regiments replacing Polish tank battalions?

Its supposedly just a squadron, but I would guess that is the general idea.

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2 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Its supposedly just a squadron, but I would guess that is the general idea.

Not sure we've got the people or the kit to do more than that!

Best,

Greg.

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On 4/27/2022 at 6:54 AM, Damian said:

Challenger 2's will be operated by British tank crews. I highly doubt that IF this will happen, these tanks will be operated by Polish tank crews.

Does this means that Poland gave T-72 and in return UK will statione in Poland its (UK army ) tank squadron?

 

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39 minutes ago, Wobbly Head said:

Apart from Javelin and MLAW it looks to me like NATO is using Ukraine as a disposal site for their surplus hardware.

Judging by complains by Ukrainians about battery expiring too quickly on both seems those two were also near the end of shelf life.

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1 hour ago, Wobbly Head said:

Apart from Javelin and MLAW it looks to me like NATO is using Ukraine as a disposal site for their surplus hardware.

Not so much. They are getting other light modern weapons like the various MANPADS. When it comes to heavy weapons the western european NATO members no longer have (much) surplus in storage, the ex-WP member often do and while it might not be super modern, it's more or less the same the Ukrainians have in inventory. The Russians too. Their heavy weapons are actual Soviet era or improved versions, so a Polish T-72 or a Bulgarian 2S1 is not 2nd rate. 

 

PS: In any case it is less the individual weapon system but how you use it in combination with your other weapon systems. The Ukrainians seem to be rather good at that. 

Edited by Markus Becker
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7 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Yeah, availablity for Challenger wont really step up till they get Challenger 3. Hope they buy enough spares this time around. It was seemingly a bodged procurement in that regard.

It's always been that way, at least since the second world war.  Buy as little as you think you can get away with.

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Well, the Chieftain buy wasn't bad, they always seem to have had spare engines... But looked at honestlt, both the Challenger 2 and challenger 2 fleet were weakly supported. To commit 2 Brigades of Challenger for Desert storm, the Army has to strip ALL Challengers in Germany for parts, for example.

Attitudes I think will enforce a change, at some point anyway.

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10 hours ago, Damian said:

I think there is some misunderstanding here. What we gave Ukraine, were our tanks from reserve stocks most likely. However active tank battalions were most likely not stripped from their tanks. Of course I can be wrong, because there is strict OPSEC kept around the matter, however I really doubt all our T-72's were given away. At least for now.

Are these reserve tanks given to the Ukraine stock T-72s? If so, I don't think they will last very long in the Battlefield. Or are they the PT-91 Twardy with the Erawa ERA?

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40 minutes ago, On the way said:

Are these reserve tanks given to the Ukraine stock T-72s? If so, I don't think they will last very long in the Battlefield. Or are they the PT-91 Twardy with the Erawa ERA?

Most likely T-72M's and T-72M1's. But who says that Ukrainians can't mount their own ERA on them? ;)

6 hours ago, Perun said:

Does this means that Poland gave T-72 and in return UK will statione in Poland its (UK army ) tank squadron?

 

Most likely.

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17 minutes ago, Damian said:

...But who says that Ukrainians can't mount their own ERA on them? ;)...

IIRC K-1 istalation takes only ~60 man-hours per tank, most of which is welding on the brackets, so definitely a relatively easy upgrade.

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10 hours ago, Damian said:

Most likely T-72M's and T-72M1's. But who says that Ukrainians can't mount their own ERA on them? ;)

Most likely.

Yeah, but even if the Ukrainians mount their own ERA on the T-72s you give them, it will still be a lot less survivable then a PT-91. I would assume.

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3 hours ago, On the way said:

Yeah, but even if the Ukrainians mount their own ERA on the T-72s you give them, it will still be a lot less survivable then a PT-91. I would assume.

PT-91 base armor is identical to T-72M1. ERA is ERA, not matters if it's Nozh, ERAWA or something else. PT-91 have same ammunition storage as any T-72.

58 minutes ago, Perun said:

Thanks mate 😊

This kind of bargain is not so practical for Poland

Either we will quicjly procure more M1's, or we will expedite Wilk programme. I sent questions to the MoD, and we will see what they will respond to me.

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12 minutes ago, Damian said:

Either we will quicjly procure more M1's, or we will expedite Wilk programme. I sent questions to the MoD, and we will see what they will respond to me.

 

Why not more Leo II? You no longer trust the seller? 

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27 minutes ago, Markus Becker said:

 

Why not more Leo II? You no longer trust the seller? 

There are both political reasons, as well as technical reasons. Let's say we had a lot of time to familirize ourselfs with Leopard 2's as well as other NATO MBT's (M1's, Challenger 2's, Leclerc's, C1 Ariete's). We are aware of both pros and cons. Also paradigm of our approach to soldiers life changes, slowly but steadily. We will never have numbers, so we need maximum survivability for tank crews. This is not only my view, I had opportunity to talk with one officer that currently serves on Leopard 2, and Army is fully aware of these issues.

 

Also we are not happy with Leopard 2PL upgrade, due to many reasons, cooperation with Rheinmetall is not stellar either AFAIK.

Edited by Damian
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Challenger 3 has ammo storage. They pretty much replicated what they did on the Abrams.

Ok, so there is a problem with producing hull's, but im pretty sure the poles have the ability to make their own hulls.

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