On the way Posted April 19, 2022 Posted April 19, 2022 I have seen many pictures including the ones coming out of Ukraine where tanks with ERA are burnt out and destroyed. We are talking blackened hulks. And yet the ERA boxes on the turrets and hulls are intact. Should'nt the explosives in these boxes cook off or ignite from the fire?
bojan Posted April 19, 2022 Posted April 19, 2022 (edited) Those explosives are quite insensitive and will burn, but not explode when exposed to fire. They don't even burn very vigorously. Edited April 19, 2022 by bojan
Ssnake Posted April 19, 2022 Posted April 19, 2022 Which might explain why sometimes they get reported as "empty" and another proof of Russian military corruption.
sunday Posted April 19, 2022 Posted April 19, 2022 This could be nonsense but, Could it be that sometimes they are left empty, especially in vehicles working closely with infantry, to prevent friendly casualties? Seems however that standing next to a tank, ERA o no ERA, that is taking enemy fire is dangerous already, so the extra danger posed by ERA going off could very well be irrelevant.
Ssnake Posted April 19, 2022 Posted April 19, 2022 8 minutes ago, sunday said: This could be nonsense Yes, it is. Kontakt-1 and -5 are designed to contain the explosive reaction within their cassettes, by merely bulging the plates rather than send them flying.
Przezdzieblo Posted April 19, 2022 Posted April 19, 2022 13 hours ago, Ssnake said: Yes, it is. Kontakt-1 and -5 are designed to contain the explosive reaction within their cassettes, by merely bulging the plates rather than send them flying. Pardon? K-1 explosion send cell that is hit flying. Sometimes with neighbouring cells. K-5 explosion, in case of turret wedges of T-90, send that section (both part of V, AFAIR 10 cells in total) flying. In case of front hull upper plate in one section there are 6 cells, and when section is hit, all those cells are send flying, leaving spot that is no more protected by ERA.
On the way Posted April 20, 2022 Author Posted April 20, 2022 12 hours ago, Przezdzieblo said: Pardon? K-1 explosion send cell that is hit flying. Sometimes with neighbouring cells. K-5 explosion, in case of turret wedges of T-90, send that section (both part of V, AFAIR 10 cells in total) flying. In case of front hull upper plate in one section there are 6 cells, and when section is hit, all those cells are send flying, leaving spot that is no more protected by ERA. Is there a reason then that you see completely burn out tanks, but their ERA boxes looking intact. NOt even bulged or blown up. Will not the intense fire set of the ERA in the boxes?
sunday Posted April 20, 2022 Posted April 20, 2022 There are fire-insensitive explosives, there are also impact-insensitive explosives. I think there are even explosives insensitive to both.
On the way Posted April 20, 2022 Author Posted April 20, 2022 4 minutes ago, sunday said: There are fire-insensitive explosives, there are also impact-insensitive explosives. I think there are even explosives insensitive to both. Then how can they defeat a CE round?
sunday Posted April 20, 2022 Posted April 20, 2022 Just now, On the way said: Then how can they defeat a CE round? Insensitivity could be tuned, possibly varying the mix of explosives and fillers. Here is an anecdote of a M1 tanker and demounting the TUSK bricks on his tank using a sledgehammer. Here is an article on the matter.
bojan Posted April 20, 2022 Posted April 20, 2022 1 hour ago, On the way said: Is there a reason then that you see completely burn out tanks, but their ERA boxes looking intact. NOt even bulged or blown up. Will not the intense fire set of the ERA in the boxes? K1 and K5 are initiated by the super fast compression from the impacts in excess of... IDR ATM, something like 1300-1400m/s. So that leaves only APFSDS and HEAT as reliable initiators. In case of fire, explosives will burn, but ERA boxes are not even sealed*, and burning is reasonably slow, so no reason for them to be blown up or bulged. *Look at the corners of the boxes:
Przezdzieblo Posted April 20, 2022 Posted April 20, 2022 It was thought that sometimes long rod impact is not enough to initiate explosive in ERA cell. K-5 was designed to be fuzed by high-velocity splinters generated by impacting rod. In case of Relikt there is aluminium spacer inside casette for better shock wave transfer into explosives.
On the way Posted April 21, 2022 Author Posted April 21, 2022 13 hours ago, bojan said: K1 and K5 are initiated by the super fast compression from the impacts in excess of... IDR ATM, something like 1300-1400m/s. So that leaves only APFSDS and HEAT as reliable initiators. In case of fire, explosives will burn, but ERA boxes are not even sealed*, and burning is reasonably slow, so no reason for them to be blown up or bulged. *Look at the corners of the boxes: I see, so the explosives will burn up within the box.
DB Posted April 21, 2022 Posted April 21, 2022 These explosives seem to sit closer to the term "gas generator" than to more traditional "high explosive". ie their purpose is to push, not to shatter. I think they will be low brisance, if I understand that term correctly. This plus all the other things mentioned could make the bricks look superficially fine, but they'd still be cooked.
DougRichards Posted April 21, 2022 Posted April 21, 2022 23 hours ago, Przezdzieblo said: It was thought that sometimes long rod impact is not enough to initiate explosive in ERA cell. K-5 was designed to be fuzed by high-velocity splinters generated by impacting rod. In case of Relikt there is aluminium spacer inside casette for better shock wave transfer into explosives. Cassette? Cassette? No wonder there is nothing happening, cassettes are so 1970s and 1980s..... As if tanks were equipped with 8 track protective explosive devices???
Przezdzieblo Posted April 21, 2022 Posted April 21, 2022 Sorry Language issues. The proper word would be probably case or container, where ERA inserts are put into.
sunday Posted April 21, 2022 Posted April 21, 2022 16 minutes ago, Przezdzieblo said: Sorry Language issues. The proper word would be probably case or container, where ERA inserts are put into. Cassette is perfectly fine. At least in the North Hemisphere. 😋
Ssnake Posted April 21, 2022 Posted April 21, 2022 I think Doug was just pulling your leg. Looking up the word in a dictionary, cassette is just fine - as a small box, a lockable small container, especially one that can be replaced without major effort.
rmgill Posted April 26, 2022 Posted April 26, 2022 I'm surprised he didn't go on about how Reel To Reel or plastic disks with grooves were the higher fidelity thing to use....
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