Warsaw pact OOB update

[Pavel Novak]

Also they are quite optimistic with R-60M. Sometime ago I was reading some polish discussion regarding R-60 vs R-60M in Polish air force and conclusion was that R-60M was quite rare there. So MiG-23MF had just R-60 and not R-60M.

Also MiG-21PFM had just one hardpoint under each wing - so max carried number of missiles is wrong in above texts.

[Pavel Novak]

On the other hand they have it correct regarding type of mentioned missiles like ARMs - that Poles got just AS-12 but CS and East Germans this and also AS-11.

[bojan]

1 hour ago, Pavel Novak said:

...Also MiG-21PFM had just one hardpoint under each wing - so max carried number of missiles is wrong in above texts.

Didn't someone in WP have double adapter for 2 x R-3/13 for PFMs?

[Stuart Galbraith]

They certainly had them for R60's. Never seen them for multiple R13's.

[Pavel Novak]

1 hour ago, bojan said:

Didn't someone in WP have double adapter for 2 x R-3/13 for PFMs?

Poles had double ones for R-3S but that still means max 4 missiles not 6. We don't have it. Our PF/PFM were limited to R-3S and mighty RS-2US.

[alejandro_]

On 2/24/2024 at 12:01 AM, Darth Stalin said:

Hello, gents!

Looking for more info, I've accidentally found that Hungarian book on RUBINM 1987 reorganisation from divisional into brigade structure.

Here's the link:

https://nkerepo.uni-nke.hu/xmlui/bitstream/handle/123456789/16055/Rubin-feladat 1987 2020.pdf;jsessionid=64E1BCEA8FC1859AD31BBB159835F132?sequence=1

That will be really good reading!

 

Yep, there's a lot of good reading - the google translator online works pretty well, and the OoB is very detailed, with numbers and types of each weapons class.

Perfect work!

Indeed, some interesting stuff I have picked up:

- T-72 was ×7.5 more expensive than T-55, Hungary had to think long and deep before buying it.  in 1986 one T-55A tank cost 5.6 million forints, and one T-72 tank 42.6 million forints

- Similar data for artillery: 2S3M cost 375,000 rubles, and a 152 mm D-20 howitzer 55,500 rubles
- Hungary bought 124 152 D-1 howitzers in the  1950s, 70 were bought back by the Soviets in 1958 (perhaps to supply Allied countries?)
- In 1973 Hungary  handed over to Syria 90 T-54A tanks and  12 MIG-21 F-13 as part of the Ősirózsa aid program.

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

I begin to see why they were using FUG's as APC's now....

[Darth Stalin]

16 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

I begin to see why they were using FUG's as APC's now....

As a matter of fact these were PSzH-IV, with gun turret.

The Hungarians produced these nice (although small) vehicles in huge numbers, with over 900 being delivered to GDR's Grenztruppen - all regiments (in fact battalions) around West Berlin were equipped with these, as well as 1 company in  each of the Volkspolizei Bereitschaften.

So it was a good idea to produce their own APC instead of purchasing them from the USSR.

Same idea was to produce SKOT by Poland and Czechoslovakia, though it was a pity that Poland has purchased them in smaller numbers than needed to equip all of our Mech Divisions. And also a pity, that the idea to develop and produce a successor of SKOT was abandoned, as the Czechoslovaks had pretty interesting designs and pretty good all-terrain 8x8 chassis of their Tatra 815 truck.

[bojan]

SKOT/OT-64 was one of the few viable wheeled APCs in 70s period, even if it was not w/o problems (side armor not resistant to 7.9x57 ball ammo @ 100m, could only hold 7.62x39 @ 25m).

Edited May 2 by bojan

[alejandro_]

2 hours ago, bojan said:

SKOT/OT-64 was one of the few viable wheeled APCs in 70s period, even if it was not w/o problems (side armor not resistant to 7.9x57 ball ammo @ 100m, could only hold 7.62x39 @ 25m).

What does it offer if compared to BTR-70 from similar era?

[Stuart Galbraith]

8 hours ago, Darth Stalin said:

As a matter of fact these were PSzH-IV, with gun turret.

The Hungarians produced these nice (although small) vehicles in huge numbers, with over 900 being delivered to GDR's Grenztruppen - all regiments (in fact battalions) around West Berlin were equipped with these, as well as 1 company in  each of the Volkspolizei Bereitschaften.

So it was a good idea to produce their own APC instead of purchasing them from the USSR.

Same idea was to produce SKOT by Poland and Czechoslovakia, though it was a pity that Poland has purchased them in smaller numbers than needed to equip all of our Mech Divisions. And also a pity, that the idea to develop and produce a successor of SKOT was abandoned, as the Czechoslovaks had pretty interesting designs and pretty good all-terrain 8x8 chassis of their Tatra 815 truck.

I've always liked them, it was a neat vehicle, just a little of a stretch to cover for a BTR60.

[Pavel Novak]

3 hours ago, alejandro_ said:

What does it offer if compared to BTR-70 from similar era?

Troops can actually get in and out.

[Stuart Galbraith]

It was also a distinct improvement  at swimming as I recall.

[bojan]

3 hours ago, Pavel Novak said:

Troops can actually get in and out.

This. Turret was also better as it enabled higher elevation angles for armament. There was one diesel engine instead of two gasoline ones.

[Pavel Novak]

However turret in CS on OT-64A have same turret as BTR. Only polish later variant got better turret with much better elevation.

 

[Darth Stalin]

On 5/3/2024 at 9:07 AM, Pavel Novak said:

However turret in CS on OT-64A have same turret as BTR. Only polish later variant got better turret with much better elevation.

 

Exactly. That was called SKOT-2AP. Same turret was used in Polish TOPAS (OT-65) variant being called TOPAS-2AP.

[Perun]

Pohraniční stráž a ochrana státních hranic

 

( brigády, prapory a roty PS  do roku 1991 )

 

 

HS PS OSH                    Praha

 

5.brigáda PS                  Cheb

 

1.prapor PS               Aš

   1.rota PS                 Trojmezí                           

   2.rota PS                 Pastviny                          

   3.rota PS                 Újezd

   4.rota PS                 Ašská

   5.rota PS                 Nový Žďár

   6.rota PS                 Polná

2.prapor PS                  Cheb                  

   7.rota PS                 Dubina                          

   8.rota PS                 Pomezí                             

   9.rota PS                 Hraničná

  10.rota PS                Svatý Kříž

  11.rota PS                Hrozňatov

  12.rota PS                Mýtina

3.prapor PS                  Halže

  13.rota PS                 Dyleň                          

  14.rota PS                 Slatina                        

  15.rota PS                 Broumov

  16.rota PS                 Branka

  17.rota PS                 Pavlův Studenec

 

 rota OPK Trojmezí

OPK: Cheb, Pomezí, Boží Dar, Vojtanov

 

Úsekové oddělení OSH :    Nové Hamry

Oddělení OSH :                          Boží Dar

                                                     Potůčky

                                                     Nové Hamry

                                                     Bublava

                                                     Kraslice

 

 Úsekové oddělení OSH :   Vernéřov

Oddělení OSH :                          Luby

                                                     Vojtanov

                                                     Vernéřov

                                                     Doubrava

                                                     Hranice

 

9.brigáda PS                  Domažlice

 

1.prapor PS                Rozvadiv

   1.rota PS                 Vašíček                                  

   2.rota PS                 Stoupa                          

   3.rota PS                 Hraničky

   4.rota PS                 Nový Dvůr

   5.rota PS                 Diana

   6.rota PS                 Železná

 

2.prapor PS                Poběžovice

  7.rota PS                  Pleš                       

   8.rota PS                 Rybníky                           

   9.rota PS                 Hraničná

  10.rota PS                Nemanice

  11.rota PS                Čerchov

  12.rota PS                Bystřice

 

3.prapor PS                Nýrsko

  13.rota PS                 Folmava                           

  14.rota PS                 Maxov                        

  15.rota PS                 Všeruby

  16.rota PS                 Sruby

  17.rota PS                 Svatá Kateřina

  18.rota PS                 Pod Ostrým

 

rota OPK Pálenec

četa OPK Rozvadiv

OPK: Rozvadiv, Folmava, Česká Kubice

 

7.brigáda PS                  Sušice

 

1.prapor PS                Železná Ruda

   1.rota PS                 Černé Jezero                                 

   2.rota PS                 Svároh                           

   3.rota PS                 Debrník

   4.rota PS                 Polom

   5.rota PS                 Prášily

   6.rota PS                 Javoří Pila

 

2.prapor PS                Volary

  7.rota PS                  Kvilda                       

   8.rota PS                 Borová Lada ( Knížecí Pláně )                           

   9.rota PS                 Žďárek

  10.rota PS                Dolní Silnice

  11.rota PS                České Žleby

  12.rota PS                Stožec

  13.rota PS                 Nová Pec                         

 

 

3.prapor PS               Lipno

  14.rota PS                 Zvonková                        

  15.rota PS                 Kyselov

  16.rota PS                 Pasečná

  17.rota PS                 Spáleniště

  18.rota PS                 Mnichovice

 19.rota PS                  Mlýnce

 

OPK + četa OPK : Železná Ruda, Strážný, Studánky

 

 

15.brigáda PS                  České Budějovice

 

1.prapor PS                Kaplice

   1.rota PS                 Horní Dvořiště                                 

   2.rota PS                 Dolní Dvořiště                          

   3.rota PS                 Kamenná

   4.rota PS                 Cetviny

   5.rota PS                 Černé Údolí

   6.rota PS                 Šejby

 

2.prapor PS                Suchdol

  7.rota PS                  Nové Hrady                      

   8.rota PS                 Fišerovy Chalupy                           

   9.rota PS                 České Velenice

  10.rota PS                Krabonoš

  11.rota PS                Tokániště

  12.rota PS                Chlum u Třeboně

  13.rota PS                Hajnice                         

 

 

3.prapor PS               Nová Bystřice

  14.rota PS                 Nový Vojířov                       

  15.rota PS                 Smrčná

  16.rota PS                 Artoleč

  17.rota PS                 Staré Město

  18.rota PS                 Slavonice

  19.rota PS                 Slavětín

  20.rota PS                 Písečná

  21.rota PS                 Rancířov

 

OPK + rota OPK : Horní Dvořiště

OPK + četa OPK : Dolní Dvořiště, České Velenice, Halámky, Nová Bystřice

 

 

4.brigáda PS                  Znojmo

 

1.prapor PS                Jemnice

   1.rota PS                 Vratěnín                                  

   2.rota PS                 Stálky                          

   3.rota PS                 Šafov

   4.rota PS                 Hájenka

   5.rota PS                 Lukov

 

2.prapor PS                Znojmo

   6.rota PS                 Podmolí

   7.rota PS                 Devět Mlýnů                     

   8.rota PS                 Šatov                           

   9.rota PS                 Hatě

  10.rota PS                Ječmeniště

  11.rota PS                Jaroslavice

 

3.prapor PS               Hrušovany

  12.rota PS                Dyjákovice

  13.rota PS                Hevlín                         

 14.rota PS                 Hrušovany                       

 15.rota PS                 Březí

 16.rota PS                 Mikulov

 17.rota PS                 Sedlec

 

4.prapor PS               Břeclav

 18.rota PS                 Valtice - Rajsna

 19.rota PS                 Valtice cel.úřad

 20.rota PS                 Boří Dvůr

 21.rota PS                 Poštorná

 22.rota PS                 Lány

 23.rota PS                 Ruské Domy

 

 

11.brigáda PS                  Bratislava

 

1.prapor PS                Malacky

   1.rota PS                 Moravský Ján                                 

   2.rota PS                 Malé Leváre                           

   3.rota PS                 Gajary

   4.rota PS                 Suchohrad

   5.rota PS                 Záhorská Ves

   6.rota PS                 Vysoká při Morave

   7.rota PS                 Devínské Jezero

                     

2.prapor PS                Petržalka

   8.rota PS                 Děvínská Nová Ves                           

   9.rota PS                 Děvín

  10.rota PS                Petržalka

  11.rota PS                Kopčany

  12.rota PS                Jarovce

  13.rota PS                Rusovce                   

 

 

3.poříční prapor PS        Komárno

   1.poříční oddíl PS        Bratislava

   2.poříční oddíl PS        Medvedov 

   3.poříční oddíl PS        Komárno

 

OPK + rota OPK: Petržalka

OPK + četa OPK: Děvínská Nová Ves

OPK: Bratislava (letiště,přístav), Rusovce, Komárno, Štírovo, Šahy

 

Oddělení OSH: Chlaba, Skalka, Ipeľský Sokolec, Vyškovce nad Ipľom, Šahy

 

 

12.školní brigáda             Planá u Mariánských Lázni

 

   1972 - 1979               1.školní prapor         Chodová Planá

                                      2.školní prapor         Zadní Chodov

                                      3.školní prapor         Tisová

                                      4.školní prapor         Volary

                                Výcvikové středisko psovodů     Libějovice

  

   1979 - 1999                1.školní prapor         Zadní Chodov

                                      2.školní prapor         Tisová

                                      3.školní prapor         Chodová Planá

                                Výcvikové středisko psovodů     Libějovice

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20071012031851/http://www.klub-pohranici.cz/moravoslezsky/ps/pohranicnistraz_7.htm#Dislokace_do_roku_1991_

[Perun]

THE CZECHOSLOVAK BORDER GUARD

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/22263272-the-czechoslovak-border-guard

[Stuart Galbraith]

If you want an East German equivalent, Thomas Forsters 'The East German Army' has some excellent information on the East German Border Guards.

https://archive.org/details/eastgermanarmypa0000fors_w1h9/page/n303/mode/2up

There is also an article in Armor magazine, delineating discovered East German plans to take West Berlin, which included their special forces parachute battalion, as well as lots of Border Guard units, whom had a dual role capability. It rather explains why they had quite so many FUG armoured cars.

[Darth Stalin]

13 minutes ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

If you want an East German equivalent, Thomas Forsters 'The East German Army' has some excellent information on the East German Border Guards.

https://archive.org/details/eastgermanarmypa0000fors_w1h9/page/n303/mode/2up

There is also an article in Armor magazine, delineating discovered East German plans to take West Berlin, which included their special forces parachute battalion, as well as lots of Border Guard units, whom had a dual role capability. It rather explains why they had quite so many FUG armoured cars.

Yes, in fact the NVA would mobilise 2x parachute/airmobile battalions (from peacetime 40th Abn regt) - 40th and 41st.One would take part in capture of West Berlin, one in landing(s) on West German/Danish coast.in cooperation with Baltic Fleet landing forces (including East German Amphibious MRR from 8th MRD).

Those "PSzh-IV-heavy" battalions (called "border regiments") were exclusively in Grenzkommando Mitte - total of 6 such bns (plus 2 x training regiments, each wth 2 x bns, thosewith BTR-60 or PSzH-IV); each such bn also had a battery of 6 x 120mm mortars, 6 x 85mm D-44 guns, SPG-9 RCLs etc., in fact being typical MR battalions. Also the Volkspolizei Bereitschaften and Kampfgruppen der Arbeiterklasse had an MR company with APCs - VP with PSzH-IV (as they were subordinate to Ministry of Interior, just like Border Guards), KGAK mostly BTR-152 or BTR-40.

Note that FUG was an earlier, turretless variant, PSzH-IV was an APC dervative.

[Stuart Galbraith]

You reminded me of a good video I had stashed away...

 

[Captain Hurricane]

If anyone is interested in the organisation and equipment holdings of the East German military in 1988 (including the Grenztruppen) I can recommend Alterfritz's comprehensive work on the subject:

https://www.relikte.com/literatur.htm

just scroll down to the NVA section and click on the NVA 88 picture on the right to download a copy of the PDF, which covers the following forces:

Das Ministerium für Nationale Verteidigung (MfNV)
- Die Landstreitkräfte (LaSK) der NVA
- Die Luftstreitkräfte/Luftverteidigung (LSK/LV) der NVA
- Die Volksmarine (VM) der NVA
- Die Grenztruppen (GT) der DDR
- Die Truppen des Ministeriums für Staatssicherheit (MfS)
- Die Polizeitruppen des Ministeriums des Innern (MdI)
- Die Kampfgruppen der Arbeiterklasse (KG)
- Die Ausrüstung der Bewaffneten Organe der DDR

 

[Perun]

Double post

Edited May 9 by Perun

[Perun]

16 hours ago, Captain Hurricane said:

If anyone is interested in the organisation and equipment holdings of the East German military in 1988 (including the Grenztruppen) I can recommend Alterfritz's comprehensive work on the subject:

https://www.relikte.com/literatur.htm

just scroll down to the NVA section and click on the NVA 88 picture on the right to download a copy of the PDF, which covers the following forces:

Das Ministerium für Nationale Verteidigung (MfNV)
- Die Landstreitkräfte (LaSK) der NVA
- Die Luftstreitkräfte/Luftverteidigung (LSK/LV) der NVA
- Die Volksmarine (VM) der NVA
- Die Grenztruppen (GT) der DDR
- Die Truppen des Ministeriums für Staatssicherheit (MfS)
- Die Polizeitruppen des Ministeriums des Innern (MdI)
- Die Kampfgruppen der Arbeiterklasse (KG)
- Die Ausrüstung der Bewaffneten Organe der DDR

 

Thanks mate, that is wery usefull sute

[Captain Hurricane]

I think I might have posted that link before somewhere here but, yes it certainly has a lot of useful stuff on various NATO countries as well as the NVA and GSFG in the late 1980's.