Warsaw pact OOB update

[Perun]

I dont have link but I found document, send me email

Edited February 13 by Perun

[Perun]

4 hours ago, Darth Stalin said:

Sorry for digging out that topic, but where can this PDF be downloaded from?

send me email

[Darth Stalin]

On 2/13/2024 at 3:36 PM, Perun said:

send me email

Perun, I've send You my e-mail, but did not receive anything, have You sent me the file or something wrong is with the e-mail?

[Perun]

Sent it yesterday, did you received it

[Darth Stalin]

12 hours ago, Perun said:

Sent it yesterday, did you received it

Got it, thanks!

However, the Soviet units in Hungary need an update - they never had T-72 tanks while staioined there, they were re-armed from T-64 (which were transferred to Odessa MD units) into T-72s when moved to USSR (Byelorussian MD).

Also, the USAF wing in Aviano did not exist then; Aviano was a USAF base for reinforcements, combat units were permanently based there during war in Yugoslavia.

The Austrian Bundesheer also dd not have MLRS (if these are supposed to be the US famous MLRS) systems in 1989.

However, it's a great basis for further update.

And the Hungarian units are after the RUBIN reorganisation - great, thanks!

 

Do you have that file available in MS Word format, so it could be updated, especially with Soviet and WarPact units?

Edited February 23 by Darth Stalin

[Perun]

@Darth Stalin great info mate, thanks.

No, I dont have it in other formats

 

Edited February 23 by Perun

[Darth Stalin]

Hello, gents!

Looking for more info, I've accidentally found that Hungarian book on RUBINM 1987 reorganisation from divisional into brigade structure.

Here's the link:

https://nkerepo.uni-nke.hu/xmlui/bitstream/handle/123456789/16055/Rubin-feladat 1987 2020.pdf;jsessionid=64E1BCEA8FC1859AD31BBB159835F132?sequence=1

That will be really good reading!

 

Yep, there's a lot of good reading - the google translator online works pretty well, and the OoB is very detailed, with numbers and types of each weapons class.

Perfect work!

Edited February 24 by Darth Stalin

[Perun]

5 hours ago, Darth Stalin said:

Hello, gents!

Looking for more info, I've accidentally found that Hungarian book on RUBINM 1987 reorganisation from divisional into brigade structure.

Here's the link:

https://nkerepo.uni-nke.hu/xmlui/bitstream/handle/123456789/16055/Rubin-feladat 1987 2020.pdf;jsessionid=64E1BCEA8FC1859AD31BBB159835F132?sequence=1

That will be really good reading!

 

Yep, there's a lot of good reading - the google translator online works pretty well, and the OoB is very detailed, with numbers and types of each weapons class.

Perfect work!

Great book, thanks mate

[Perun]

 

STRUKTURA ORGANIZACYJNA LOTNICTWA WOJSKOWEGO NIEMIECKIEJ REPUBLIKI DEMOKRATYCZNEJ
German Democratic Republic Air Force scheme
1989

https://web.archive.org/web/19990507192807/http://free.polbox.pl/m/mariwoj/nal.htm

[Perun]

Does any one have map or link to map of Soviet SAM coverage

[RETAC21]

9 hours ago, Perun said:

Does any one have map or link to map of Soviet SAM coverage

https://geimint.blogspot.com/ SAM site overview has all the current and historical sites

[Perun]

23 hours ago, RETAC21 said:

https://geimint.blogspot.com/ SAM site overview has all the current and historical sites

Thanks mate 🙂

 

Some time ago I found map shoving positions of Soviet SAM positions in Europe, another map of Soviet SAM sites with missiles range and a nice map of NATO and WP SAM sites in central europe with ranges but now I cant finde neither of those three online. I have them on my PC but dont have it with me wright now

[RETAC21]

16 hours ago, Perun said:

Thanks mate 🙂

 

Some time ago I found map shoving positions of Soviet SAM positions in Europe, another map of Soviet SAM sites with missiles range and a nice map of NATO and WP SAM sites in central europe with ranges but now I cant finde neither of those three online. I have them on my PC but dont have it with me wright now

There are several blog entries there that look at the SAM networks of Eastern Europe and their development over time.

[Perun]

[RETAC21]

Very interesting map.

[Darth Stalin]

Yep, the map looks great, where does it come from?

Pity, that it is not in better quality and more readable... Yet, it is brilliant.

I hope, you can upload also other maps you've mentioned before...

Edited April 15 by Darth Stalin

[Perun]

I will post link, and for other maps for now I didnt find them again but I will 😉

I have them saved on my pc but I am not close to it for now

[Perun]

8 minutes ago, Perun said:

I will post link, and for other maps for now I didnt find them again but I will 😉

I have them saved on my pc but I am not close to it for now

 

On 4/13/2024 at 9:43 PM, Perun said:

https://rtv-pvo-gsvg.narod.ru/

Enjoy mates, this is interesting site

[Perun]

The MIG-27 series was designed to hit targets 50-300 km FEBA (10-65 hexes). The MiG-27K/M would attack air defence installations, C&C, bridges and so on with PGM (short range attacks).

The Su-17 series would use unguided weapons and perform SEAD plus the recon units. Same distances as MiG-27.

Su-24M lo-lo-lo radius was 555 km with drop tanks, 6 FAB-500 bombs or 407 km without drop tanks. Radius with two nukes was 775 km. Design was 300-800 km FEBA.

The Su-25 was designed for CAS and BAI up to 50 km FEBA (11 hexes). Secondary nuclear attack role with RN-28 nuclear bombs (removed from all export).

PGM were available. An article from 2012 mentioned only 25% units used precision weapons. For example one squadron Su-24 used guided bombs, second squadron SEAD, third training.


GSFG (East Germany)

North Corps (North of Berlin line)
16 Guards IAD (Division)
33 IAP (Wittstock): MiG-29
773 IAP (Damgarten): MiG-23ML/MLD (MiG-29 from 1989)
787 IAP (Finow): 2 squadrons MiG-23M/ML, one MiG-25PD (deters US SR-71 based in UK)

125 ADIB
19 Guards APIB (Larz): MiG-27K/M/D
20 Guards APIB (Templin): Su-17M3 till 1991, Su-17M4 from April 1987
730 APIB (Neuruppin): Su-17M4
http://www.easternorbat.com/html/730th_apib_bb_eng.html


South Corps (South of Berlin)
6 Guards IAD
31 Guards IAP (Falkenberg): MiG-23M (MiG-29 from March 1989)
85 Guards IAP (Merseburg): MiG-23M till 1988, MiG-29 from March 1986
296 APIB (Altenburg): MiG-27D/M

126 IAD
35 IAP (Zerbst): MiG-23ML till 1988, MiG-29 from 1987
73 Guards IAP (Kothen): MiG-23MLD till 1987 then MiG-29
833 IAP (Altes Lager): MiG-23MLD

105 ADIB
116 Guards BAP (Brand): Su-24M
497 BAP (Grossenhain): Su-24
559 APIB (Finsterwalde): MiG-27D/K


Independent (would operate where ever)
357 OShAP (Brandis): 30 Su-25
11 ORAP: 24 Su-24MR recon
294 ORAP: 25 SU-17M3R recon
931 ORAP: 4 MiG-25RBT, 2 MiG-25RBV, 3 MiG-25RBS, 5 MiG-25RBF recon
292 OVE REB: 6 Mi-8SMV radar jamming, 8 Mi-8PPA comms jamming

Some changes due to unit movements and equipment changes
http://www.16va.be/orbat_eng_16VA.html
http://www.ww2.dk/new/air force/army/16va.htm

Plenty of maps: http://www.16va.be/cartes.html

http://www.easternorbat.com/html/soviet_16th_tactical_air_ar...

 

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1774011/article/25782982#25782982

[Perun]

Soviet: Overview - Poland

Northern Group Forces (Poland)
Lost of Su-24 fencers, start of the Su-27 and the very are MiG-25BM.

239 IAD
159 IAP (Kluczewo): MiG-21SM, MiG-21SMT and MiG-21bs till 1988. Su-27 started to re-equip from 11th July 1987
582 IAP (Choyna): MiG-21SMT, MiG-21bis. Su-27 from 1989
871 IAP (Kolobzheg): MiG-23MLA and MiG-23MLD

149 BAD
3 BAP (Krzywa): Su-24
42 Guards BAP (Zhagan): Su-24M
89 BAP (Szprotawa): Su-24

132 BAD (Chernyakhovsk, Kalinigrad)
4 Guards BAP: Su-24
63 BAP: Su-24M
668 BAP (Tukums, Latvia): Su-24M

Independent
151 OAPREB: two squadrons with Yak-28PP jammers
164 OGRAP (Brzheg): 1 squadron each Su-24MR recon, MiG-25RB recon, MiG-25BM Wild Weasel

Polish Air Forces
There are two homeland air defences and 4th Air Army. The 4th would support the Polish Army moving along Northern German Plain and into Denmark.

Lim-5R are MiG-17F with recon pods. Bomb bombs.
Lim-6bis are basically MiG-17F. They can carry rockets, but not runway dippers.

MiG-21PFM were fitted with dual R-60M launchers in mid 1980s for 6 total R-60M {2}. They can also carry bombs and rockets
MiG-21M only mention R-3S. Also rockets and bombs. R-3S {3}
MiG-21MF were fitted with dual R-60M carriers 1985-86. R-60M {2}
MiG-21R would carry recon pod and along with R-3S {6}. They could also carry Saturn recon pods (again converted UB-16-57 rocket pods)
MiG-21bis had R-60M, R-3R and R-13M, along with bombs and rockets
MiG-23MF has R-23 and R-60M, so standard R-23 {6}, R-60M {3}

The Su-7 would be as Su-7BMK in Elusive Victory with bombs and rockets. No mention made of runway dippers or recon capability. In early 70s they were fitted with two additional weapon hardpoints (six total) and probably cluster bombs at the same time. Bomb 2 instead of Bomb 1. They were retired 1988-90, so still in service in 1987.

Around half the Su-20 were specialised Su-20R recon. The KKR-1 recon pod was later introduced. It could operate as fighter with 4 R-3S, but would not be a good idea.

90 Su-22M4 and 20 Su-22U3M were delivered between 1984 and 1988, so not all available in 1987. They have the bells and whistles such as AS-10, AS-12, AS-14, SPS-141 jammer pod, and standard bombs and rockets. Around 60% were nuclear capability with this being replaced by AS-14 capability in the rest. There were no recon versions delivered, although some were later fitted in 1990s.

Air Defense Corps - Korpus Obrony Powietrznej (KOP)
1.KOP (Centre)
1.PLM (Minsk Mazowiecki): 3 squadrons MiG-21M/PFM
10.PLM (Lask): 3 squadorns MiG-21PFM
42.ELT (Warsawa-Bmowo)
2.KOP (Baltic Coast)
26.PLM (Zegre Pomoorskie): 3 squadrons Mig-21bis
28.PLM (Slupsk): 3 squadrons MiG-23MF
34.PLM (Gdynia): 3 squadrons MiG-21bis
43.ELT (Bydgoszcz)
3.KOP (West)
11.PLM (Wroclaw): 3 squadrons MiG-21MF
39.PLM (Mierzecice): 2 squadrons MiG-21PF/PFM (disbanded 1987)
62.PLM (Poznan-Krzesiny): 3 squadrons MiG-21MF
44.ELT (Wroclaw)

4.KL (4th Air Army)
Direct reporting
7.PLB-R (Powidz): 2 squadrons Su-20, 1 squadron Su-22M4R
32.PLRT (Sochachew): 3 squadrons MiG-21R
4th Fighter Air Division
2.PLM (Goleniow): 3 squadrons MiG-21M
9.PLM (Debrzno): 3 squadrons MiG-21MF
41.PLM (Malbork): MiG-21M/MF
2nd Fighter Bomber Air Division
6.PLM-B (Pila): 3 squadrons Su-22M4 (first unit, operational 1986)
21.PLM-B (Powidz): 2 squadrons Lim-6bis, Lim-5R (MiG-17) recon. This unit disbanded in 1986 for Su-22M4 training.
45.PLSz-B (Babimost): 3 squadrons Lim-6bis (MIG-17) training. Would be secondary attack
3rd Fighter Bomber Air Division
3.PLM-B (Bydgoszsz): 3 squadrons Su-7BM/BKL
8.PLM-B (Miroslawiec): Lim-6bis, Lim-5R (MiG-17s) (start Su-22M4 conversion November 1988)
40.PLM-B (Swidwin): 3 squadron Su-22M4 (second unit to convert)

Due to Political unrest nuclear weapons training ceased for the Su-7 and Su-20 in 1982, along with one squadron MiG-21PFM. The two seat Su-22U3M were supposed to have been trained, but this never happened. So no nuclear weapons for Polish Air Force in 1987.

SAMs
http://geimint.blogspot.com.au/2009/10/polish-strategic-air-...

 

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1774011/article/25782982#25782982

Edited April 29 by Perun

[Perun]

Luftstreikrafte der Nationalen Volksarmee (LSK) of the German Democratic Republic (GDR).
Highlights were the attack MiG-23BN, Su-22M4 and some MiG-23. Otherwise its different flavours of MiG-21. The MiG-29 and SA-10 SAM were after 1987.

The MiG-17F had been reeled from fighters at attack in the mid 1970s. They were finally replaced by MiG-23Bn in 1986. Likewise the MiG-19 and MiG-21F-13 had gone.

MiG-21s
52 MiG-21PF delivered. In 1970s fitted locally with twin R-3S carriers. Retired 1988.
82 MiG-21PFM delivered. Not fitted with 23mm gun pod. In mid 1980s all MiG-21PFM fitted with twin carriers for R-60 on outer wing HP (total 6 R-60 carried).
54 MiG-21PFM delivered with 23mm gun pod. Flown by JG 2 and JG 7.
87 MiG-21M delivered. Six fitted for nuke bombs. Flown by JG 2, JG 3, JG 7, JG 8, JG 9
50 MiG-21MF, 12 MiG-21MF-75 delivered to JG 8 and JG 9. R-13M replaced R-3S by 1986.
56 MiG-21bis delivered to JG 8 and JG 9.
12 MiG-23MF delivered to JG 9.
22 MiG-23BN delivered. Nuke capable.
32 MiG-23MLA delivered to JG 9.
44 Su-22M4, 4 Su-22M4R delivered to LSK and Navy.

Recon a/c carried the CLA-87 recon pod. These were converted from UB-16 rocket pods. AS the name suggests the pod entered service in 1987.

MiG-21PF appears in Elusive Victory. Only difference is R-3S {3} in Red Storm. See http://s84.photobucket.com/user/Fulcrum85/media/ddr947monsun...
MiG-21PFM also appears in Elusive Victory. As below JG 1 probably did not carry gun pod. By Red Storm Air to Air is R-60 {2}
MiG-21M would be same stats as MiG-21MF
MiG-21MF appears in Elusive Victory. Air to Air is R-13M {3}
MiG-21MF-75 has provision for R-13M, R-60M missiles. Estimated Air to Air is R-13M {6}, R-60 [3}
MiG-21bis is again same game stats as MiG-21MF-75. It did have special afterburner mod at Low altitude for increased thrust, so Clean Mnvr is 6/6/8
MiG-23MLA uses R-24 series
MiG-23BN and Su-22M4 can carry Soviet nuclear bombs

1st LVD (Division) in South
JG 1 (Holzdorf): MiG-21PFM (no gun pods),
JG 3 (Preschen): 3 squadrons MiG-21MF
JG 7 (Drewitz): 3 squadrons MiG-21M
JG 8 (Marxwalde): 3 squadrons MiG-21bis

3rd LVD (North)
JG 2 (Trollenhagen): MiG-21PF, MiG-21PFM, MiG-21M
JG 9 (Peenemunde): 1 squadron MiG-23MF, 2 squadrons MiG-23MLA

FO FMTFK
JBG 37 (Drewitz): 2 squadrons with MiG-23BN. Awesome site: http://www.jbg37.de
JBG 77 (Laage): 2 squadrons Su-22M4
TAFS 47 (Preschen): 1 1squadron MiG-21F-13 (16 a/c), 4 MiG-21M

SAM
48 S-75 Dvina (8 batteries), 174 S-75 xxxx (29 batteries), 40 SA-3 (xxx batteries), 24 S-200 Vega (4 batteries) plus one 2 Soviet S-200 batteries. Again the link: 

http://geimint.blogspot.com.au/2008/08/ddr-air-defense-cold-...

 

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1774011/article/25782982#25782982

[Perun]

Czechoslovakia Air Force
Again the MiG-29s and SA-10 are in the future.

MiG-21PFM - around half have gun pod - 9 of these had provision for nuclear bomb. Fitted with R-60M in mid 1980s (max 4, so no dual carriers). Air to Air R-60M {3}

MiG-21M was 24 delivered. They had been basically updated to MiG-21MF standard.

MiG-21MF had 102 delivered. 21 had provision for CL ECM pod. in 1985 were fitted for R-13M. Air to Air R-13M {3}

MiG-23ML shared the existing MiG-23MF R-23 missiles (no R-24). Only 150 R-23 delivered, which would quickly be expended.

Su-22M4 had all the bells and whistles, being capable of AS-10, AS-12, AS-14 and AS-11 missiles, KKR recon pods and so on.

7th Air Army (homeland air defence)

2nd Air Defence Division
8th Regiment (Brno): 3 squadrons MiG-21MF

3rd Air Defence Division
1st Regiment (Budejovice): 3 squadrons MiG-21PF, MiG-21PFM, MiG-21MF (assume one squadron each)
11th Regiment (Zatec): 1 squadron MiG-21PF, 1 squadron MiG-23MF, 1 squadron MiG-23ML

10th Air Ary (Army Support)

1st Fighter Air Division
5th Regiment (Dobrany): 3 squadrons MiG-21MF
9th Regiment (Bechyne): MiG-21PF/PFM, MiG-21MF

34th Fighter Bomber Division
6th Fighter Bomber Regiment (Prerov): 2 squadrons MiG-21MF
20th Fighter Bomber Regiment (Narmest): 2 squadrons Su-22M4. Possibly some Su-7BM remain.
28th Fighter Bomber Regiment (Caslav): 2 squadrons MiG-23BN
30th Fighter Bomber Regiment (Pardubice): 3 squadrons Su-25K
47th Recon Regiment (Pardubice): 2 squadrons MiG-21R, 1 squadron Recon Su-22M4R (8 a/c delivered)

There are two SA-5 sites by 1985
Dobris has three batteries, each six launchers, so 18 ready rounds
Rapotice has two batteries for 12 ready rounds

SAM sites overview: http://geimint.blogspot.com.au/2008/09/czechoslovakian-strat...
Range rings, etc: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_0HCJq6B1wZA/SN3_vkJGfKI/AAAAAAAABH...

 

 

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1774011/article/25782982#25782982

[Perun]

Reinforcements would fly in from Baltic (15th Air Army), Belorussian (26th Air Army) and Carpathian Military Districts (14th Air Army).

Depending on global operations yet more would be available from Moscow Military District (Strategic Reserve)

Baltic Military District Air Force

Subordinate
886th ORAP (Jekabpils, Latvia): 2 squadrons Su-27M4R recon
285th OVEREB (Jelgava, Latvia): Mi-8 EW helos

39th ADIB
372nd APIB (Daugavpils-Lotsiki, Latvia): MiG-27M/K - possibly 1 K, 2 M
899th APIB (Lielvarde, Latvia): 3 squadrons MiG-21SMT in attack role

Belorussian Military District Air Force
These forces would reinforce the north of GDR
http://www.easternorbat.com/html/belorussian_military_distri...

Subordinate
10th ORAP (Schuchin): 1 squadron each MiG-25RB, MiG-25BM, MiG-21R
206th OSAP (Pruzhany): 3 squadrons Su-25
397th OSAP (Kobrin): 3 squadrons Su-25
306 BAP (Bobrovichi): 3 squadrons Su-24. Disbanded 1987.

95th IAD
927th IAP (Bereza-Osovitsy): 3 squadrons MiG-29
968th IAP (Ross): 3 squadrons MiG-29
979th IAP (Schuchin): 3 squadrons MiG-23ML

1st Guards BAD
911th APIB (Lida): 2 squadrons MiG-27K,1 squadron MiG-27
940th APIB (Postavy): 3 squadrons MiG-27D/M
305th (Postavy): 3 squadrons Su-24

Carpathian Military District Air Force
As per the link below would reinforce into Czechoslovakia for operations in to Southern Germany:
http://www.easternorbat.com/html/carpathian_military_distric...
http://www.easternorbat.com/html/vvs_carpathian_military_dis...

Subordinate
368 OSAP (Kalinov): 3 squadrons Su-25. To East Germany December 1988
48 OGRAP (Kolomija): 1 squadrons Yak-28R, 2 squadron Su-17M3R
209 OVEREB (Lutsk): Mi-8PP Ew helos

4th Fighter Air Division
92nd Guards IAP (Munkachevo): 3 squadrons MiG-29
145th IAP (Ivano-Frankovsk): 3 squadrons MiG-29 from Jun 1987. Was MiG-21bis
192nd IAP (Ivano-Frankovsk): 3 squadrons MiG-21bis

289th Fighter Bomber Division
179th APIB (Stryy): 3 squadrons MiG-23M in attack role: http://www.easternorbat.com/html/the_multi_role_179th_fighte...
806th APIB (Lutsk): 3 squadrons Su-17M2
69th APIB (Ocruch): 3 squadrons Su-17M3

Moscow Military District Air Force

Subordinate
297th OVEREB: Mi-8SMV and Mi-8PPA EW helos

9th Fighter Aviation Division
32nd Guards IAP (Shatalovo): 3 squadrons MiG-23MLD
234th Guard IAP (Kubinka): 3 squadrons MiG-29
274th IBAP (Migalovo): 3 squadrons Su-17M4

 

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1774011/article/25782982#25782982

[Pavel Novak]

3 hours ago, Perun said:

Czechoslovakia Air Force
Again the MiG-29s and SA-10 are in the future.

MiG-21PFM - around half have gun pod - 9 of these had provision for nuclear bomb. Fitted with R-60M in mid 1980s (max 4, so no dual carriers). Air to Air R-60M {3}

MiG-21M was 24 delivered. They had been basically updated to MiG-21MF standard.

MiG-21MF had 102 delivered. 21 had provision for CL ECM pod. in 1985 were fitted for R-13M. Air to Air R-13M {3}

MiG-23ML shared the existing MiG-23MF R-23 missiles (no R-24). Only 150 R-23 delivered, which would quickly be expended.

Su-22M4 had all the bells and whistles, being capable of AS-10, AS-12, AS-14 and AS-11 missiles, KKR recon pods and so on.

7th Air Army (homeland air defence)

2nd Air Defence Division
8th Regiment (Brno): 3 squadrons MiG-21MF

3rd Air Defence Division
1st Regiment (Budejovice): 3 squadrons MiG-21PF, MiG-21PFM, MiG-21MF (assume one squadron each)
11th Regiment (Zatec): 1 squadron MiG-21PF, 1 squadron MiG-23MF, 1 squadron MiG-23ML

10th Air Ary (Army Support)

1st Fighter Air Division
5th Regiment (Dobrany): 3 squadrons MiG-21MF
9th Regiment (Bechyne): MiG-21PF/PFM, MiG-21MF

34th Fighter Bomber Division
6th Fighter Bomber Regiment (Prerov): 2 squadrons MiG-21MF
20th Fighter Bomber Regiment (Narmest): 2 squadrons Su-22M4. Possibly some Su-7BM remain.
28th Fighter Bomber Regiment (Caslav): 2 squadrons MiG-23BN
30th Fighter Bomber Regiment (Pardubice): 3 squadrons Su-25K
47th Recon Regiment (Pardubice): 2 squadrons MiG-21R, 1 squadron Recon Su-22M4R (8 a/c delivered)

There are two SA-5 sites by 1985
Dobris has three batteries, each six launchers, so 18 ready rounds
Rapotice has two batteries for 12 ready rounds

SAM sites overview: http://geimint.blogspot.com.au/2008/09/czechoslovakian-strat...
Range rings, etc: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_0HCJq6B1wZA/SN3_vkJGfKI/AAAAAAAABH...

 

 

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1774011/article/25782982#25782982

Our MiG-21PFM did not carry R-60/R-60M. That required extensive rewiring. I think it was studied as possibility but not done.

Orbat is incorrect:

- no 7th air army

- wrongly equipped squadrons

[Perun]

3 hours ago, Pavel Novak said:

Our MiG-21PFM did not carry R-60/R-60M. That required extensive rewiring. I think it was studied as possibility but not done.

Orbat is incorrect:

- no 7th air army

- wrongly equipped squadrons

Thanks mate