Who Are the Fascists--The Ukes Or the Rus?

[Poopstain]

Gentlemen:

 

Thought it might be useful to move the "your guy is a bigger fascist than my guy" discussion off the "war in Ukraine" thread as that debate seems to have taken over and submerged the original purpose of the thread.    Of course it's up to y'all if you agree.

 

I'll start:  IMHO, I am leaning (but only leaning) towards the Rus as being the bigger bad guys here.   After all they launched the invasion, and evidence--which I do take with a HUGE grain of salt at this time as propaganda is quite naturally endemic--seems to point to very serious war crimes on their part.  Then there is the recent editorial by a Kremlin-approved media outlet that seems to be explicitly calling for genocide.   But then we have what appear to be videos of Ukes shooting captives so I'm still going to reserve judgment.    In the end, I still think this is a lot like arguing about who is the tallest midget.

 

You guys?

[sunday]

Neither, no Fascists there.

There are one side that employs self-declared Nazis in its armed services, even as barrier troops, in the best Soviet USSR tradition, allowing, if not encouraging, them to perpetrate war crimes and brag about them. That has been happening since 2014.

It is like the conventions of Geneva and La Hague were non-existent for the Ukrainian troops, and there are even people around stating that a defender in an aggression war is not bound by those conventions.

 

[Tim the Tank Nut]

to the degree that I have any opinion at all I'd say this thread would be better off in the FFZ as it is likely to exacerbate lively discussion.  Of course, any thread that leads to an improvement of the signal to noise ratio in the main thread is a net positive.

As far as the actual topic goes I think it is hard to get past the fact that Russia invaded a relatively sovereign Ukraine.  In two hundred years we may have enough information to know specifics but not right now. 

I'm guessing it is possible that there are no "good guys" in the fray at all.  Much like the Iran/Iraq war but I find it distasteful to root for continued war at this stage.

[R011]

Who has invaded whom again?  Whose actions have caused thousands of civilian deaths in Mariupol?  Who seems to have murdered hundreds of people in Bucha?

No one believes the Russian claims of genocide, not even the alleged victims who are resisting the Russian Army as fiercely as their ethnic Ukrainian compatriots.

[Der Zeitgeist]

12 minutes ago, Poopstain said:

Thought it might be useful to move the "your guy is a bigger fascist than my guy" discussion off the "war in Ukraine" thread as that debate seems to have taken over and submerged the original purpose of the thread.    Of course it's up to y'all if you agree.

I completely agree. A dedicated fascist thread is exactly what TankNet was missing.

[sunday]

4 minutes ago, R011 said:

Who has invaded whom again?  Whose actions have caused thousands of civilian deaths in Mariupol?  Who seems to have murdered hundreds of people in Bucha?

No one believes the Russian claims of genocide, not even the alleged victims who are resisting the Russian Army as fiercely as their ethnic Ukrainian compatriots.

If invading a foreign country is a hallmark of Fascism, then you Canadians should watch carefully your southern neighbor 😁

Also "seeming" is not the same a "has"

[Poopstain]

9 minutes ago, sunday said:

If invading a foreign country is a hallmark of Fascism, then you Canadians should watch carefully your southern neighbor 😁

Also "seeming" is not the same a "has"

You don't think Blackface Hitler is jonesing to invade the U.S.?   Why do you think he is pushing the whole tranny thing so hard?   Well he knows that if he can only influence enough U.S. servicemen to get their twig and berries chopped off, we'll be easy pickings.....

[sunday]

13 minutes ago, Poopstain said:

You don't think Blackface Hitler is jonesing to invade the U.S.?   Why do you think he is pushing the whole tranny thing so hard?   Well he knows that if he can only influence enough U.S. servicemen to get their twig and berries chopped off, we'll be easy pickings.....

That sound like pre-war excuses to get to the Alberta Oil Sands...

[R011]

Information is firming up on Bucha, and not in Russia's favour.  Not that Putin supporting actual fascists care.

[sunday]

2 minutes ago, R011 said:

Information is firming up on Bucha, and not in Russia's favour.  Not that Putin supporting actual fascists care.

I care about crime scene contamination, and measures to prevent of.

[Stuart Galbraith]

1 hour ago, Der Zeitgeist said:

I completely agree. A dedicated fascist thread is exactly what TankNet was missing.

 

[lucklucky]

None of those has a corporatist assembly with trades classes , worker unions(classes) and other classes to  moderate the Communist class struggle.

 

UKes neverthless is moving towards Putin Russia in what people can say and in what aspects the State can control of people lives. Totalitarian Democracy being build nudge by nudge...

 

 

 

 

[Poopstain]

3 hours ago, Der Zeitgeist said:

I completely agree. A dedicated fascist thread is exactly what TankNet was missing.

"I am but an agent of Chaos."

 

The Joker 

[Der Zeitgeist]

7 hours ago, Poopstain said:

"I am but an agent of Chaos."

 

The Joker 

I know. Send my regards to Seahawk. 😉

[Stuart Galbraith]

11 hours ago, lucklucky said:

None of those has a corporatist assembly with trades classes , worker unions(classes) and other classes to  moderate the Communist class struggle.

 

UKes neverthless is moving towards Putin Russia in what people can say and in what aspects the State can control of people lives. Totalitarian Democracy being build nudge by nudge...

 

 

 

 

Source please.

[sunday]

Nazism, Fascism and Communism are Atheistic ideologies.

So, this video is quite insightful on that aspect. It could be that Putin is a consumate actor, also.

https://odysee.com/@Velyaminov:a/Vladimir-Putin-said-goodbye-to-Zhirinovsky.:f?r=HdXXqA6C9tsPdDRGDaKdBTU95ffwfGL7

[DB]

If we assume that the subject title is substituting "Fascists" for "bad guys" rather than quibbling over specific definitions of Fascism, then we end up having a big fight over relative levels of badness, and that's just an excuse for "whataboutism", of which there is enough blighting most other topics on this grating sight.

For what it's worth, I have a couple of general points.

- If something is used as propaganda, that does not automatically mean that it is a work of fiction. Real atrocities can be used as propaganda, too. On the other hand, just because someone screams that every civilian death is a war crime, does not make it so. It is a truism that civilians get killed in wars, whether there is active targeting of them or not.

- The Russians appear to use the term "Fascist" in exactly the same way that Rik Mayall did in "The Young Ones", as a general epithet applied to anyone and anything that prevents you from getting your way.

Are we supposed to assign a score to each breach of the various laws of war, tot them up and award the side with the largest score with a trip to The Hague?

In my opinion, the real crime was starting a war in the first place, and that was a choice made by one side only here.

[sunday]

6 minutes ago, DB said:

In my opinion, the real crime was starting a war in the first place, and that was a choice made by one side only here.

Yep, the people of Donetsk and Luhansk when they wanted to escape the Russophobic government instaurated after the 2014 Maidan coup?

Probably the same logic that could call criminals the Irishmen that started the Irish War of Independence in 1919.

Or the Thirteen Colonies in 1776.

[sunday]

Example of inaceptable Russofascist demonstration at the heart of Germany.

 

[lucklucky]

2 hours ago, co446 said:

Fascism is the merger of government with big business. It was used to describe the 'bundle' of politcal parties working together that Mussolini used to gain power. Fascism= bundling. Like putting sticks in a bundle. Fascism. Public Private Partnerships are fascism. When a sports team wants the city it's in to gift them a new stadium it's fascism. The sports team and the local politicians bundle (work) together to make each other much richer than before. Of course the public loses, but don't they always?

Carta del Lavoro...

 

[bojan]

Only as link, as it is pretty graphic.

https://twitter.com/Levi_godman/status/1512426598884163591

 

[Stefan Kotsch]

2 hours ago, bojan said:

Only as link, as it is pretty graphic.

Nazis doing Nazi things? Well, were the killer from Srebrenica also Nazis?  The Chetniks are believed to be similar a little bit to the Bandera people. Both also allied themselves with the German Wehrmacht for some time in the interests of their countries. In the eyes of the Russians a clear sign of 'Nazi!'.

 

(One thing is clear, war brings out the worst in people.)

[sunday]

You are free to start a Nazi Antidefamation League.

[Poopstain]

3 hours ago, bojan said:

Only as link, as it is pretty graphic.

https://twitter.com/Levi_godman/status/1512426598884163591

 

Looks like a bog-standard American police arrest, quite frankly.   

[bojan]

1 hour ago, Stefan Kotsch said:

Nazis doing Nazi things? Well, were the killer from Srebrenica also Nazis?  The Chetniks are believed to be similar a little bit to the Bandera people. Both also allied themselves with the German Wehrmacht for some time in the interests of their countries. In the eyes of the Russians a clear sign of 'Nazi!'.

Srebrenica you say? Your brave defenders of Ukraine, celebrating Ratko Mladic:

Chetniks... Well, it was US that has supported them, both during WW2 and post-WW2. 1948, Truman:

Also refusing to extradite this "fine" example of humanity.

 

Edited April 8, 2022 by bojan