Ireland wants a fighter squadron?

[Dawes]

Seems that they've gotten by thus far without fighters:

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/defence/latest/irish-commission-recommends-fighter-procurement

[Stuart Galbraith]

They did have some spitfires post-war. But that was 2 seaters, converted MkIX trainers.

Times change, they have been making these noises for a while. The RAF isn't as big as it was after all.

[Dawes]

From the document mentioned in the Jane's article:

 

LOA 3 The Commission believes that achieving LOA 3 would require a very significant enhancement of the Air Corps’ capabilities, with commensurately higher levels of defence spending.   A key element of a step up to LOA 3 would be the development of a national Air Defence Plan, with provision of a comprehensive air policing capability being central to this Plan. The provision of primary radar, as recommended in the context of LOA 2, is a key enabler of an air policing capability but, at present, the Air Corps has only an embryonic intercept capability, limited to slow flying aircraft and helicopters. Our lack of an intercept capability has been described by the Air Corps as a major gap in the State’s overall defence capability.

Under LOA 3, the Commission envisages that, building on the advent of primary radar, the Air Corps would develop an air combat and intercept capability through the acquisition of a squadron of jet combat aircraft, allied to the development of associated operational, infrastructure and support arrangements. A move to LOA 3 would also involve a further step change increase from LOA 2 in organic reach and lift capability through the acquisition of two or three troop carrier type aircraft. The Commission also considers that LOA 3 would allow the overseas deployment of combat aircraft, pilots and support personnel to provide organic intra‐theatre mobility based on tactical transport helicopters, with a minimum capacity being to move a platoon of personnel at will in an operational area. Deployed forces would also have an organic helicopter combat SAR capability. Such aircraft would be armed and equipped to operate in hostile environments in order to provide agile and effective fire in support of ground forces.

Edited February 13, 2022 by Dawes

[Dawes]

Maybe there's a few Tranche 1 Eurofighters lying around that would be fine for air policing.

[Manic Moran]

This has been a topic for discussion for years in Ireland and on Irish boards, and not just aircraft. The Navy has no functioning subsurface capability either. The only ship which did have a sonar, the nearly-40-year-old Eithne (also the only one to ever carry a helicopter, for the short amount of time that that facility was used) hasn't put to sea in several years, due to a manning shortage. And I'm not sure the sonar currently works anyway. Similarly, the two Peacock class CPVs have also reached the end of their service lives and don't go to sea much. Not that they have the crews to do so.

The full document is to be found here. https://us.v-cdn.net/6034073/uploads/YR2FHLEUP3SU/215358-a21b9438-45a6-4c26-a508-c0d1aeeeb336.pdf

It's pretty grim reading. (The Irish Times even used the word 'grim' when discussing the section on the reserve forces, which have withered away to uselessness).

The problem has been decades of underfunding. Retention is poor, partly because of pay and conditions, and partly because there is a feeling that the government (and country as a whole) just doesn't care about them. This is not the only report which has recommended change, defense white papers came out in 2010 and 2015 as well. This commission observed that of the fifteen recommendations put out as regards the RDF (Reserves) in the 2015 paper, not a single one had been implemented. There is no specific defense minister, it's usually an additional hat worn by a cabinet member with a primary portfolio, right now it's the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine. (One previous such dual-holder referred to his position as Minister for Fish and Ships). Before the current one, the Defense portfolio was held by the PM personally. The 2015 white paper came out when the current Minister of Defence (Coveny) had held same position two governments previously (During which point he caused a bit of a minor scandal by calling out the Air Corps for refusing to fly him somewhere when the pilot said the weather forecast was for fog).

Frankly, many of us suspect that if it wasn't for the minor brouhaha last month caused by the Russian naval exercises, this report would likely have been released to little fanfare and quietly buried with all the others. It's actually getting a bit of attention, for what good the intention will do. We still think it's going to quietly die.

There's just no particular inclination of any appetite for doing much. "Why on Earth should we buy fighters? Who is going to invade us, and if the Russians do invade us, what good would a dozen fighters do? Spend the money on more hospitals" sort of thing (Despite Health getting about 20 times the budget of Defence). Same for the Army. The Navy tends to get things a bit better, as evidenced by the six more modern patrol ships which are currently operating. Although the commission suggests that LOA2 is the minimum, and that even at that it should be pending discussion on movement towards LOA3, I honestly don't expect anything better than LOA one-and-a-bit to come out of this.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Its difficult to see that if 40 years of Cold War didnt move Ireland out of its understandable reluctance to rearm, then a few 60 year old nuclear bombers and Russian warships probably isnt going to do it either.

A pity, the UK could do with a good ally guarding its western flank. We could concentrate on the North Atlantic and the North Sea then.

[wilhelm]

Ireland will certainly not be interested in some Britons opinion to spend that kind of money for limited capability.

Like MM said, it won't happen.

There is ZERO appetite here to fund an ultra-expensive boutique half squadron that would end up being grounded due to the inevitable operational funding shortages.

The economic bubble that burst in 2008, and subsequent bailout will be paid for for years still.

 

Ireland is NEUTRAL.

 

You'll have to find some other idiot to fund your anti-Russia drivel.

Edited February 14, 2022 by wilhelm

[Stuart Galbraith]

Oh, Ireland is neutral? Oh how wonderful. You will tell long range aviation one of these days, wont you? Because they seem to be using a map dating from before 1921.

https://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2020/0318/1123836-russian-military-aircraft-bombers-ireland/

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/russian-bombers-in-irish-airspace-for-second-time-in-days-1.4200213

https://www.irishcentral.com/news/raf-forced-to-intercept-as-russian-bomber-planes-enter-irish-airspace

Edited February 14, 2022 by Stuart Galbraith

[wilhelm]

You need help with your pathological hatred wrt to Russia.

It pollutes every single thread.

Ireland is not going to fund something because a Briton with xenophobic issues wants it.

The people here are neutral and will remain so.

Go and seek help with your problem.

 

Edited February 14, 2022 by wilhelm

[Stuart Galbraith]

Yes Wilhelm, always nice to talk with you.

 

[TrustMe]

It should be noted that the RAF has the right to fly over Ireland on QRA against Russian bombers coming in from the Atlantic west of Ireland heading towards Briton. 

[Manic Moran]

7 hours ago, wilhelm said:

Ireland will certainly not be interested in some Britons opinion to spend that kind of money for limited capability.

Like MM said, it won't happen.

There is ZERO appetite here to fund an ultra-expensive boutique half squadron that would end up being grounded due to the inevitable operational funding shortages.

The economic bubble that burst in 2008, and subsequent bailout will be paid for for years still.

 

Ireland is NEUTRAL.

 

You'll have to find some other idiot to fund your anti-Russia drivel.

It's not anti-Russian drivel to state that Ireland is completely incapable of policing its air and subsurface spaces, or to state that a basic policing capability is an expected feature of a sovereign country. If an airliner suddenly drops off the secondary radar in its airspace, right now Ireland has no capability to determine if it crashed into the sea like Air France 447 or just suffered electrical problems and was still flying, or was hijacked. At least a primary radar could determine if the aircraft were still in the air or if it went down, where to send the search teams.

It is also not anti-Russian drivel to state that as an economy heavily based on technology, and with many of the EU's undersea cables within its territory, the information risk to the nation from any actors at all, be they government (Russia or China) or even private hacker groups, is such that the Army's cyber domain and sub-surface surveillance capabilities need a massive boost.

Neither is it anti-Russian drivel to state that the Irish military is suffering a major capabilities gap to do to standard even what they are supposed to be doing right now, Eithne, Orla and Ciara are a couple of thousand tons worth of proof if you wander down to Haulbowline.

If nothing is done as a result of this report, it is because there are no votes in it until after it is too late, not because there is no need for the investment.

As an aside, technically Ireland is non-aligned with a default policy of neutrality towards any particular situation.

[Olof Larsson]

8 hours ago, wilhelm said:

Ireland will certainly not be interested in some Britons opinion to spend that kind of money for limited capability.

Like MM said, it won't happen.

There is ZERO appetite here to fund an ultra-expensive boutique half squadron that would end up being grounded due to the inevitable operational funding shortages.

The economic bubble that burst in 2008, and subsequent bailout will be paid for for years still.

 

Ireland is NEUTRAL.

 

You'll have to find some other idiot to fund your anti-Russia drivel.

Ireland is a member of the EU and therefore not neutral, according to the mutual defence clause and the solidarity clause. And as a independent nation, Ireland has a obligation to police it's own territory, it's own airspace and its own territorial waters.

[Dawes]

Too bad these guys disbanded. They could have provided some cost effective air patrols:

[Simon Tan]

Russian Mercenary Air Force. Ideal, since the Russians are visiting anyway. Get a discount rate from PutinMart. 

[Dark_Falcon]

48 minutes ago, Simon Tan said:

Russian Mercenary Air Force. Ideal, since the Russians are visiting anyway. Get a discount rate from PutinMart. 

Better to invest in some F/A-18Es. Pick up a couple of Fs for training. Great over-water performance, reasonable prices and contractor maintenance is easily available. Buy American!

 

/Not meant sarcastically. The Super Hornet would serve Ireland well.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Dark_Falcon
Spelling error correction.

[R011]

I would think they'd want the least expensive aircraft to acquire and operate that would do the job.  The KAI FA-50 might be suitable.  Gently used Hornets or pre-owned F-16s might work too.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Buy some Mig 15's and emblazen them with 'The Peoples Republic of Ireland Air Force'. That would mess with those Ruskie heads.

[TonyE]

Used Gripens can be bought or rented from Sweden, propably at a very nice rate.

[RETAC21]

I think there's an obivous solution, sitting on the other side of the Atlantic:

[Stuart Galbraith]

Nah, get Guinness to form their own airforce, they had their own merchant navy after all.

https://www.marine.ie/Home/site-area/news-events/press-releases/sunken-guinness-ship-revealed

[Sardaukar]

It is all because the Paddy Factor:

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=paddy factor

[Stuart Galbraith]

Nah, the Irish are awesome. The hardest fighting Regiments in the British Army were all Irish.

There is a wonderful passage in Riflemans Harris memoirs. They were given the job of escorting some new recruits from Northern Ireland down to Shorncliffe Barracks for training as Riflemen. Things went rather well at first till they got to Salisbury Plain, and one unwise individual said how much it reminded him of Ireland. Suddenly both the Catholics and the Protestants remembered their occasional antipathy, and they all started knocking seven bells out of each other.

Finest fighting Regiments, but discipline? If you want that, join the Guards.

[Dawes]

I believe the US 7th Cavalry's "Garry Owen" nickname has Irish roots.

[shootER5]

2 hours ago, Dawes said:

I believe the US 7th Cavalry's "Garry Owen" nickname has Irish roots.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garryowen_(air)