curious1234 Posted November 17, 2021 Share Posted November 17, 2021 (edited) I don't know anything about engineering, but at a quick glance with my untrained eye, vision ports just seems vastly inferior to using periscopes as vision devices. They both create a weaksport in the armor, the armored glass can shatter (and injure the crew) if hit by even small anti-tank weapons like the Soviet anti-tank rifle, but it's not just the actual vision port itself but any hole in an armor plate makes the whole armor plate weaker. (I think?) They look vastly more complex than a periscope. Look at the driver's vision port on the Tiger 1 for example, there are many groves and holes that need to be the made for the mounting of the armor blocks and the mechanism on the inside around the vision port, then a locking mechanism for the armored glass, then a mechanism so the driver can close the vision port. This looks pretty complicated. A periscope can also be made to be rotatable so unlike a vision port you can look through it at almost any angle. Edited November 17, 2021 by curious1234 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interlinked Posted November 20, 2021 Share Posted November 20, 2021 Yeah, they are indeed inferior for all intents and purposes. That's about it, really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shep854 Posted November 20, 2021 Share Posted November 20, 2021 The same discussion is underway regarding periscopes and cameras. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty_Zuk Posted November 21, 2021 Share Posted November 21, 2021 On 11/20/2021 at 3:10 PM, shep854 said: The same discussion is underway regarding periscopes and cameras. Cameras are better. How would you do image processing on an analog image? Also vastly reduces perception time and even more vastly increases target discrimination capability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Kotsch Posted November 22, 2021 Share Posted November 22, 2021 A good zoom camera is a fine thing. But there is no substitute for two human eyes. Wherever possible, please combine both. And these glass blocks have always irritated me. Both in the BTR-152 and in the M60, for example. Very strange to look through there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shep854 Posted November 22, 2021 Share Posted November 22, 2021 Cameras can also be damaged or obscured; which was also said about periscopes as compared to direct vision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKTanker Posted November 22, 2021 Share Posted November 22, 2021 45 minutes ago, Stefan Kotsch said: A good zoom camera is a fine thing. But there is no substitute for two human eyes. Wherever possible, please combine both. And these glass blocks have always irritated me. Both in the BTR-152 and in the M60, for example. Very strange to look through there. You're talking about the cupola vision blocks on the M60? Yes, quite hard to see out. The way they angled, plus the ammo chute making it quite difficult to get your eyes up to those vision blocks, made it quite difficult for the TC to maintain situational awareness while buttoned up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty_Zuk Posted November 22, 2021 Share Posted November 22, 2021 25 minutes ago, DKTanker said: You're talking about the cupola vision blocks on the M60? Yes, quite hard to see out. The way they angled, plus the ammo chute making it quite difficult to get your eyes up to those vision blocks, made it quite difficult for the TC to maintain situational awareness while buttoned up. What's the industry standard for forehead size? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus Becker Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 On 11/17/2021 at 1:06 PM, curious1234 said: They look vastly more complex than a periscope. Look at the driver's vision port on the Tiger 1 for example, there are many groves and holes that need to be the made for the mounting of the armor blocks and the mechanism on the inside around the vision port, then a locking mechanism for the armored glass, then a mechanism so the driver can close the vision port. This looks pretty complicated. Production bottlenecks. At the time it was probably easier to make than periscopes. No mirrors, prisms just a hole, a block of glass and a block of steel on a hinge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikel2 Posted November 24, 2021 Share Posted November 24, 2021 What category do these fit in? http://www.landships.info/landships/tank_articles/stroboscopic_cupolas.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interlinked Posted November 25, 2021 Share Posted November 25, 2021 (edited) 15 hours ago, Markus Becker said: Production bottlenecks. At the time it was probably easier to make than periscopes. No mirrors, prisms just a hole, a block of glass and a block of steel on a hinge. Keep in mind that there is no structural difference between a block of glass and a "prism". They are one and the same. A glass block, or rather, glass slab (block with parallel sides), can be inclined to be used as a refractive periscope, like the vision blocks on the American "vision cupola". By eliminating a direct path from the observer's eyes to the outside of the tank, the need for stuff like ballistic shields with eye-slits is mostly eliminated, which actually simplifies production. Also, inclining the glass block also allows it to deflect bullets and fragments much more easily, which also helps protect the observer. I daresay that the only form of vision port with any modicum of merit in terms of ease of production is the primitive vision slit. If it's just a narrow cut in the armour plate, it costs practically nothing other than a bit of time. But the drawbacks in field of vision and eye protection were overwhelming, and were identified almost immediately once tanks began to be used in combat. Edited November 25, 2021 by Interlinked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Przezdzieblo Posted November 25, 2021 Share Posted November 25, 2021 Main advantage of vision block is simplicity. Depends on exact design some could be easier to change if needed. You can have more spare vision blocks than periscopes or just periscope heads. Vision blocks need less space inside. I think, in theory, those could be also a less vulnerable to blast than some periscopes. WWII periscopes could be pushed inside by blast, with all consequences for crew on trajectory. Also, rotary periscopes, even if not forced in, can also cause injuries by rapid movement when subjected to blast. Cons are well known. Not best awareness provided, substandard protection. On second topic check Vulnerability evaluation of the M48 tank, and cupolas M1 and M13, against small arms attack. There is nice 4-part article about different commander's vision solutions (not only cupolas) by Stefan, in German. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shep854 Posted November 25, 2021 Share Posted November 25, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Przezdzieblo said: Main advantage of vision block is simplicity. Depends on exact design some could be easier to change if needed. You can have more spare vision blocks than periscopes or just periscope heads. Vision blocks need less space inside. I think, in theory, those could be also a less vulnerable to blast than some periscopes. WWII periscopes could be pushed inside by blast, with all consequences for crew on trajectory. Also, rotary periscopes, even if not forced in, can also cause injuries by rapid movement when subjected to blast. Cons are well known. Not best awareness provided, substandard protection. On second topic check Vulnerability evaluation of the M48 tank, and cupolas M1 and M13, against small arms attack. There is nice 4-part article about different commander's vision solutions (not only cupolas) by Stefan, in German. Those articles look like gold mines! Google Translate seems to do a fairly good job on the German. I do wish the M48 photos were clearer, but that's the duplication tech of the late '50s...I'd also like to see a review of the G305 cupola riser that was used in Vietnam. Edited November 25, 2021 by shep854 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DKTanker Posted November 25, 2021 Share Posted November 25, 2021 3 hours ago, Przezdzieblo said: Main advantage of vision block is simplicity. Depends on exact design some could be easier to change if needed. You can have more spare vision blocks than periscopes or just periscope heads. Vision blocks need less space inside. Perhaps vision blocks are easier to change. My experience with vision blocks and periscopes on M60s, and M60s used both, is that periscopes were much easier to replace. Stupidly easier to replace. The vision blocks on M60s were held in place by a frame bolted to the armor of the cupola. The the three driver's periscopes were held in place by two wing nuts each. The loader's daylight periscope, interchangeable with the driver's night viewer, snapped into place. Interesting thing about the M1's driver periscopes, mirrors. What you see externally is a glass block however, on the inside the driver has adjustable mirrors. Not to see up or down, which is rather limited, but to account for the different size of the drivers and driver positions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmgill Posted November 26, 2021 Share Posted November 26, 2021 (edited) That could just be poor design. WWII designed British Periscops and Direct Vision blocks were easily cahnaged. Both with hinged covers/catches or a swinging bolt/wingnut affair. With the drivers's direct vision block on the Humber you have an easy, direct view of the front you can see. You can open the hatch (not big enough to get out of mind) and directly view, close it down partly to see directly in front of you, close it down entirely to have a front view slot protected by a large thick glass block And close a cover over the glass block to have slots to look out of. The dingo had a similar arrangement. Both are not too hard to drive looking out of the front direct vision port. My Ferret which I've driven both closed down AND with periscopes (thousands of miles on Georgia/Atlanta roads), direct vision with the hatches open is far easier as you have more side vision. Direct vision is more conducive to higher speeds and not bumping into things. Edited November 26, 2021 by rmgill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmgill Posted November 26, 2021 Share Posted November 26, 2021 Oh and by all means the direct vision blocks are a weak point over periscopes, the armored slots/glass blocks would be fine against small bullet splash, but the glass blocks aren't going to do great against larger caliber stuff. Conversely the shift in view from one to the other can matter somewhat on being oriented especially when rapidly changing modes. It's really what comes down to desired protection level vs crewman visibility. Same for the big armored glass plates on some armored cars vs hatches and periscopes. More closed down and glassed in can help with crew comfort. Oh, having an approach march screen is always nice. Driving with your face in the wind in near freezing or freezing weather sucks donkey balls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bojan Posted November 26, 2021 Share Posted November 26, 2021 42 minutes ago, rmgill said: ...WWII designed British Periscops ... Polish designed. Vickers bought a license before war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Kotsch Posted November 26, 2021 Share Posted November 26, 2021 That's right, the Mk4 periscope was developed by the Polish engineer Rudolf Gundlach. For lightly armored vehicles, these vision ports are certainly pretty good. The armor doesn't hold up much more than the vision ports. In battle tanks, however, there are ballistic weak points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DB Posted November 29, 2021 Share Posted November 29, 2021 On 11/22/2021 at 2:08 PM, Mighty_Zuk said: What's the industry standard for forehead size? A serious question? There will be anthropometric data, design target would be 95th percentile, and should include a helmet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmgill Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 (edited) On 11/26/2021 at 2:13 PM, bojan said: Polish designed. Vickers bought a license before war. And then copied by the Soviets based on lend lease periscopes sent to them. I've seen an example of the Vickers WWII periscope on the loader's side of the turret of a 2S1. I need to see if I can find 'new' russian made prisms for these. Edited December 6, 2021 by rmgill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Kotsch Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 The Soviet Mk4 used to have a sliding erecting prism. Just as Gundlach had designed it. This allowed you to watch 180 degrees backwards. That was later left out. But Vickers periscopes in a 2S1? I can't imagine. These were all Soviet-made Mk4 Periscopes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmgill Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 The thing is I'm wondering how close the Mk4 Soviet Pericopes are to being copies of the Vickers Mk IV periscopes. The back viewing device is precisely what we have on Vandal. If the copies are close, I'm hoping the parts in some cases might be interchangeable. I'm hoping specifically that some of the primary or secondary prisms for the basic periscope are the parts that we can take out of our older units and swap in with new old stock parts from soviet days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bojan Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 1 hour ago, rmgill said: The thing is I'm wondering how close the Mk4 Soviet Pericopes are to being copies of the Vickers Mk IV periscopes. The back viewing device is precisely what we have on Vandal. If the copies are close, I'm hoping the parts in some cases might be interchangeable. Periscopes themselves were interchangeable during WW2, but IDK for parts themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmgill Posted December 6, 2021 Share Posted December 6, 2021 I need to find a place in Russia or the former eastern block that has the parts for sale. I found one site that had them but they didn't respond to emails in English. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interlinked Posted December 7, 2021 Share Posted December 7, 2021 IIRC, differences were in the simplification of the periscope handle, and the improvement of the weather seal on the rotating joint for better waterproofing. Other details like the visor may also have been changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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