Rittenhouse trial

[DKTanker]

5 minutes ago, BansheeOne said:

I think this is the real difference between the European and American take on self-defense. Sure, there are remote areas with little or no police presence in Europe, too, and chaotic situations may happen; but the idea that the power of the state is unavailable or overwhelmed to the point where citizens must fend for themselves for a whole night or more is rather alien to us. 

Except this wasn't the case in Kenosha, or Portland, or Seattle, or Oakland, or Los Angeles, or Detroit, or Ferguson, or Minneapolis....  None of those municipalities were overwhelmed, they simply refused to maintain law and order at the local level and or the state governors refused a National Guard presence.  So it wasn't unavailable or overwhelmed, it was governmental DENIAL of municipal protection.

[rmgill]

7 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

But hey, dont let me get in your way of tripping over falsehoods.

The point is that it WAS established as a penal colony and that there were individual sent there for crimes that if we had a more modern view of legal protections would have been very difficult rows to hoe. 

That others immigrated their of their own free will does not set aside the above in any way shape or fashion. 

[rmgill]

8 hours ago, DougRichards said:

That is guilt was not established to the requisite standard of proof, which can also be read as he may have done it but the law requires a 'requisite standard of proof'.  The High Court did not declare Pell to be innocent, just not guilty according to 'the requisite standard of proof'.

Hang on. 

If there's a presumption of innocence absent a proper demonstration of proof in court by the state, what's this middle ground of purgatory where you get to be called "not declared innocent" called legally speaking?

 

[Detonable]

2 hours ago, BansheeOne said:I think this is the real difference between the European and American take on self-defense. Sure, there are remote areas with little or no police presence in Europe, too, and chaotic situations may happen; but the idea that the power of the state is unavailable or overwhelmed to the point where citizens must fend for themselves for a whole night or more is rather alien to us. 

  Actually, Kristallnacht in 1938 or so would be an example of a European state failing to protect citizens. Which was pretty much the situation in the US prior to the election. 

[NickM]

12 hours ago, Manic Moran said:

Thessaloniki. Not quite the border.

Well my family is from the very far North West of Greece. But who's the 'other' Nick?

[Burncycle360]

The unspoken part of the deal when one advocates relinquishing responsibility for our well-being into the hands of the state is that the state simultaneously absolves themselves of any liability for it.  If the latter part is clearly articulated, the former is much less attractive.

The US is one of the few remaining countries on the planet that acknowledges both your human right to self defense, and a constitutional right to utilize the most effective tool to actualize it, and even then it's a struggle as it's denied in mostmajor cities.

If that expands out of the cities and we are ever in a situation like Europe or Commonwealth states in which you are effectively stripped of your right and means to be able to defend yourself  (ie, "You are not permitted to protect yourself and we are not responsible if we cannot protect you") then you're in a sort of purgatory and it's an indication that it's time to advocate for some fundamental changes that start at the waterline. 

[DKTanker]

5 minutes ago, Detonable said:

  Actually, Kristallnacht in 1938 or so would be an example of a European state failing to protect citizens. Which was pretty much the situation in the US prior to the election. 

Yes, I made that point earlier in this thread and was going to make it again.  Glad you chimed in.

Another parallel is that the media in Germany at the time were propagandists much like the media here in the USA, both propaganda arms rationalized the terror and in most cases in the USA, at the state and local levels, the rioting, mayhem, and outright terror was state sanctioned.  Matching the state sanctions of Kristallnacht.

[DB]

17 hours ago, Manic Moran said:

That may be part of it. However, there's a quirk in the standard jury instructions for Wisconsin. There is nothing in the  standard instructions about the exceptions. "Is he under 18?" "Is it a dangerous weapon?" "Is he in possession of it?". That's it. That's all the jury is normally instructed to consider about the charge.

The instructions do note that there are some exceptions, but for whatever reason, they say it's up to the defense to bring them up. Thus it was also a bit of a chancing of the arm that maybe the defense would slip, not mention it, and there would be a conviction (albeit one likely to be overturned on appeal)

Thanks, Manic. careful, here be dragons and you have enough trouble dealing with Youtube comments, I suspect...

[DB]

1 hour ago, rmgill said:

Hang on. 

If there's a presumption of innocence absent a proper demonstration of proof in court by the state, what's this middle ground of purgatory where you get to be called "not declared innocent" called legally speaking?

 

In Scottish law, it's called "Not proven." In the media, it's called "guilty".

[Tim the Tank Nut]

it does stagger the mind that nations that have directly experienced the government actively inciting riots against citizens would not be able to relate to the current events.  Even now that a verdict is rendered there are politicians disputing the verdict.  If the previous administration was involved then the usual suspects would be carpet-posting about it (like carpet bombing).

The political powers that be saw this as a path to reducing the practicality of self defense.  If Rittenhouse had been convicted under these circumstances then no one could have reasonably expected to be found innocent of a self defense shooting.  Fortunately the pols over reached and lost.

[DKTanker]

9 minutes ago, Tim the Tank Nut said:

  If Rittenhouse had been convicted under these circumstances then no one of the perceived wrong political persuasion could have reasonably expected to be found innocent of a self defense shooting.  Fortunately the pols over reached and lost.

Clarified it for you.

[BansheeOne]

41 minutes ago, Detonable said:

  Actually, Kristallnacht in 1938 or so would be an example of a European state failing to protect citizens. Which was pretty much the situation in the US prior to the election. 

No, that would be an example of the state going after its citizens. The Nazis tried to pass it off as angry mobs rising up spontaneously over the killing of the German ambassador to France by a Jew, which would indeed have been somewhat akin to the BLM riots. In truth it was a well-organized affair using party militia which had become state organizations in a one-party state, with official agencies like police and firefighters told to, in the words of a recent US president, stand down and stand by.

In fact if we absolutely must have a Nazi comparison (which usually are terribly misplaced), various Proud Boys, Oathkeepers and similar descending upon the Capitol upon encouragement of aforementioned president for some extralegal expression of righteous popular outrage is a much better analogue to Kristallnacht. Meanwhile the best Third Reich example for militias politically aligned with the national government "helping out" a police allegedly overwhelmed by violent insurgents is the use of "auxiliary police" in 1933.

Quote

Hermann Göring, newly appointed as Interior Minister of Prussia, established the Hilfspolizei on 22 February 1933 to assist regular police in maintaining order and later in handling communists in the wake of the Reichstag fire.[1] The organization quickly spread from Prussia to other German states and Hitler endorsed it in the Reichstag Fire Decree. The units were staffed mainly by members of Sturmabteilung (SA) and Allgemeine SS wearing SA or SS uniforms with a white brassard. It is estimated that the auxiliary units had 25,000 SA and 15,000 SS members.[2] The units also included members of Der Stahlhelm veterans organization (Der Stahlhelm). The force carried out or organized numerous violent attacks against Nazi opponents[3] and staffed the early Columbia and Dachau concentration camps.[4] The SS-Totenkopfverbände grew out of this formation.[5] The force was disbanded in August 1933 due to international protests that the units violated the disarmament provisions of the Treaty of Versailles, Adolf Hitler's growing distrust of SA,[6] and outliving its purpose during the consolidation of the new Nazi régime.[7]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilfspolizei

[R011]

17 minutes ago, BansheeOne said:

 

In fact if we absolutely must have a Nazi comparison (which usually are terribly misplaced), various Proud Boys, Oathkeepers and similar descending upon the Capitol upon encouragement of aforementioned president for s extralegal expression of righteous popular outrage is a much better analogue to Kristallnacht.

Except that Trump merely called for peaceful protest outside the Capitol, not an illegal occupation of it.  The great majority of the protesters understood this and remained peacefully outside.

[DKTanker]

1 minute ago, R011 said:

Except that Trump merely called for peaceful protest outside the Capitol, not an illegal occupation of it.  The great majority of the protesters understood this and remained peacefully outside.

Moreover, a number of the instigators have been identified as being Deep State actors and contractors.  Interestingly, only identified by numbers in investigative reports. 

[BansheeOne]

Of course recent events were of entirely different character. Which is why you should never needlessly introduce Nazi comparisons, the typical blunt instrument of the historically clueless. 😋

[Tim the Tank Nut]

the state has been going after its citizens here.  A considerable number of malcontents have turned out to be FBI agents undercover.  The entire contingent of "domestic terrorists" dedicated to kidnapping the Governor of Michigan turned out to be people employed by the FBI as informants or actual agents themselves save for two dupes who got the idea from the FBI agent in the first place.  It's not new, Ruby Ridge and Waco were decades ago.  The government of the United States is neither colorblind nor politically neutral as many parents in VA have found out now that they are under the DOJ microscope having been labelled as terrorists.  AG Garland is still classifying them as such.

If you can't smell the rot at this point then your systems aren't properly calibrated

[DKTanker]

7 minutes ago, Tim the Tank Nut said:

If you can't smell the rot at this point then your systems aren't properly calibrated

I dunno, to some, sometimes rot = dinner bell.  In other words, what we perceive as rot others perceive as equity and righteousness.

[lucklucky]

Is this true?

[DKTanker]

16 minutes ago, lucklucky said:

Is this true?

This is true.  Almost all of the businesses in Kenosha that were looted or torched or both, were minority owned (as in black and brown).  Kenosha might want to encourage some Korean immigrants to help protect their city.

[EchoFiveMike]

It should be noted that Kristallnacht was the natives attacking foreigners, whereas the current US is overwhelmingly foreigners attacking natives, or more precisely, an elite using minorities to attack the native majority.  S/F....Ken M 

Edited November 20, 2021 by EchoFiveMike

[urbanoid]

33 minutes ago, EchoFiveMike said:

It should be noted that Kristallnacht was the natives attacking foreigners, whereas the current US is overwhelmingly foreigners attacking natives, or more precisely, an elite using minorities to attack the native majority.  S/F....Ken M 

Foreigners? Really?

[lucklucky]

 

[lucklucky]

https://babylonbee.com/news/media-found-guilty-on-all-counts  🙂

[futon]

6 hours ago, DB said:

Thanks, Manic. careful, here be dragons and you have enough trouble dealing with Youtube comments, I suspect...

[Ivanhoe]