Taiwan - M60A3TTS upgrade

[Hal]

https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/4335922

Does anyone know any more about this? The article seems to imply that it will be entirely home grown, though with several upgrade options available that would seem to be reinventing the wheel somewhat. The price tag seems very light as well...

[Hal]

Re-reading the article it looks like this is more of an R&D program for three years, possible production after that. That would answer my pricing concern...

[futon]

They want to upgrade rheir M60s. The liberty times article linked in the taiwannews article you linked gave three specific areas to upgrade; gun control, fire control, and sighting. The upgrades are to be done in phases to a small batch of tanks. If the army is satisfied, more tanks will get the upgrades.

[Hal]

Thank you. I was hoping this was going to be similar to the Raytheon SLEP upgrade from a few years ago. It doesn't appear to be nearly that comprehensive...

[futon]

Yeah, a new 120mm gun would be nice. 

[17thfabn]

Is the U.S. still planning to sell M1 tanks to the Republic of China?

These articles are all from 2019:

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/28891/u-s-oks-sales-of-m1-abrams-tanks-stinger-missiles-to-taiwan-but-where-are-the-f-16s

https://www.thedefensepost.com/2019/07/09/us-approves-2-2-billion-sale-to-taiwan-of-abrams-tanks-and-stinger-missiles/

https://www.defenseworld.net/news/24494/Taiwan_Likely_To_Buy_Over_100_US____M1A2X_Main_Battle_Tanks_This_Year

Edited November 10, 2021 by 17thfabn

[Special-K]

Considering the threat they face, I have wondered why they don't have better, more modern, tanks. 

 

Have they decided that if tanks are involved its already over for them, so they are better off focusing their efforts elsewhere? 

[sunday]

For a country, selling weapons to Taiwan will mean to get into the PRC blacklist.

[urbanoid]

7 hours ago, Special-K said:

Considering the threat they face, I have wondered why they don't have better, more modern, tanks. 

 

Have they decided that if tanks are involved its already over for them, so they are better off focusing their efforts elsewhere? 

They bought 108 M1A2T's, first will arrive in 2023 or 2024.

[17thfabn]

16 hours ago, Special-K said:

Considering the threat they face, I have wondered why they don't have better, more modern, tanks. 

 

Have they decided that if tanks are involved its already over for them, so they are better off focusing their efforts elsewhere? 

Tanks would be handy for over running beach heads before they are firmly established.

[17thfabn]

9 hours ago, urbanoid said:

They bought 108 M1A2T's, first will arrive in 2023 or 2024.

Is this sale still on? It was first talked about back in 2019 but I haven't seen any thing more recent. Trying to avoid politics, but will the Biden administration allow the sale to go through?

[Hal]

I have not heard that there is any issue with this sale. I really don't trust the current administration when it comes to anything touched by the previous administration, but so far it seems that Taiwan arms sales are not an issue. In fact I believe some new contracts have been finalized recently...

 

I think that once the deliveries of the M1A2T's begin, Taiwan will double their order.

[Mighty_Zuk]

On 11/10/2021 at 6:25 AM, Special-K said:

Considering the threat they face, I have wondered why they don't have better, more modern, tanks. 

 

Have they decided that if tanks are involved its already over for them, so they are better off focusing their efforts elsewhere? 

In coastal defense, tanks are particularly useful. Both in the close fighting on the shore and the targeting of vessels far at sea. A tank can lob HE type shells at over 10km these days.

7 hours ago, Hal said:

I have not heard that there is any issue with this sale. I really don't trust the current administration when it comes to anything touched by the previous administration, but so far it seems that Taiwan arms sales are not an issue. In fact I believe some new contracts have been finalized recently...

 

I think that once the deliveries of the M1A2T's begin, Taiwan will double their order.

This is a rare sale that also includes F-16s. 

None of the weapons sold are state of the art, nor are they particularly numerous.

[bojan]

5 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

...A tank can lob HE type shells at over 10km these days...

Provided they have real HE in the inventory and not overglorified crap like HESH or HEAT-DP.

[Simon Tan]

They could do it in 1943/44 as well. You just needed a ramp to increase elevation

[alejandro_]

Quote

Thank you. I was hoping this was going to be similar to the Raytheon SLEP upgrade from a few years ago. It doesn't appear to be nearly that comprehensive...

Yes, Raytheon SLEP upgrade included a 120mm gun, which would be handy when operating Abrams.

 

[TrustMe]

55 minutes ago, alejandro_ said:

Yes, Raytheon SLEP upgrade included a 120mm gun, which would be handy when operating Abrams.

 

Didn't the Turk's upgrade their 105mm guns to 120mm on their M60's?

[rohala]

1 hour ago, TrustMe said:

Didn't the Turk's upgrade their 105mm guns to 120mm on their M60's?

yes they did

[bojan]

Israeli upgrade that Turkey acquired with tech transfer and then did upgrades domestically.

[alejandro_]

Latest M60T Turkish variants even incorporate an APS Pulat (Ukrainian Zaslon-L). There is another version (M60T1/M60T Firat) with an extendable sight.


M60T1? with extendable sensor


M60T with Pulat APS (Note sensor on front hull)

[Hal]

Yes, this (the 120mm upgrade) has been done and successfully too. Raytheon, Leonardo, Israel/Turkey at least. That's why I made the comment about re-inventing the wheel. I think it would make sense, given that the Abrams are coming and the change would massively increase firepower and interoperability at the same time.

IMHO, and it's worth every penny you're paying for it, Taiwan should:

Double the M1A2T order (for use in the limited "open" terrain areas)

Upgrade as many of the M60A3TTS's as is reasonable (something on the order of the Raytheon package + APS?)

Cascade all the rest of their 105mm MBTs to the reserves (useful as mobile pillboxes/beach defenses if nothing else)

Buy/build several hundred "light tanks/tank destroyers" (lots of close terrain where a well armed smaller vehicle could be very useful) - I'm thinking of something somewhat like the current MGS competition winner...

[Mighty_Zuk]

Nothing prevents a buy of extra barrels.

[DKTanker]

4 hours ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

Nothing prevents a buy of extra barrels.

What barrels for what tanks?  Do you mean 120mm guns for the M60A3s?  If so, you need a lot more than some extra barrels to affect that change.

[bojan]

IIRC Israeli mod had to partially cut original gun mantle in order to mount 120mm. + ammo storage.

Edited November 14, 2021 by bojan

[futon]

On 11/13/2021 at 3:25 AM, Hal said:

Yes, this (the 120mm upgrade) has been done and successfully too. Raytheon, Leonardo, Israel/Turkey at least. That's why I made the comment about re-inventing the wheel. I think it would make sense, given that the Abrams are coming and the change would massively increase firepower and interoperability at the same time.

IMHO, and it's worth every penny you're paying for it, Taiwan should:

Double the M1A2T order (for use in the limited "open" terrain areas)

Upgrade as many of the M60A3TTS's as is reasonable (something on the order of the Raytheon package + APS?)

Cascade all the rest of their 105mm MBTs to the reserves (useful as mobile pillboxes/beach defenses if nothing else)

Buy/build several hundred "light tanks/tank destroyers" (lots of close terrain where a well armed smaller vehicle could be very useful) - I'm thinking of something somewhat like the current MGS competition winner...

The context around your suggestion would be interesting to fill in. They were looking into getting M1s as early as 2014. At that time, they wanted 200 M1s. But cost reduced the amount to 120. In the political landscape, I reckon while Ma (2008-2016) was still president and he was more Pro-PRC, he would have been less likely rub the PRC wrong in that way with 200 M1s.

https://www.tanknet.org/index.php?/topic/40263-taiwanese-brave-tiger-tanks/&do=findComment&comment=1144879

For "light tank/tank destroyer" bit, a prototype development program of an 8 wheeler 105 gun vehicle is going from 2019 to 2023. ISTR some speculation of the 105 being that of South Africa's Rooikat. But it looks like Taiwan is getting a pair of US 105mm M68A2s this or next year for the prototype program. So they're reading your mind on that.