NATO ORBAT Update?

[LouieD]

Hi all, 

I was wondering, since we haven't seen Pat on here in nearly five years and with the wealth of information I have been finding on the U.S. Army, should we take a stab at updating the NATO ORBAT?

 

 

 

[Stuart Galbraith]

That would be good. But as a personal preference, perhaps the first half of the 1980's? It still seems most likely period when it would have seen combat.

[Captain Hurricane]

Sounds like a plan, lots of new information has come to hand since the last time it was updated way back when.

Pat's gaming website does not appear to have been updated since 30 October 2018: http://www.microarmormayhem.com/

I have not seen his name come up recently in any other related forums.

What can we do to assist you?

Edited November 7, 2021 by Captain Hurricane

[LouieD]

Stuart, 

I was thinking of going with the least path of resistance, we have the template for 1989 so I was thinking of starting from there (June/July, U.S> Fiscal Year ?). 

 

Captain Hurricane,

I was thinking, just like the old threads on this site, have everyone contribute and just update the word doc. I can to the U.K. and the U.S. but it would be alot for me to collate what I get for the others. I was thinking each person can have access and update their portion. Any ideas?

[Captain Hurricane]

Hi Louie, Peter here.

I'm in NZ and unfortunately I don't have a trove of relevant 70's/80's materials to assist, only stuff trawled off the internet over the years.

I'll do what I can to assist but your idea about a "live" word document updated by whoever has relevant information sounds like the best way to go. 

[PCallahan]

Hi All -- 

I'm still around and reading the board pretty regularly.  I'll dredge up the most recent edition I have to act as a working base.  I haven't updated it in a couple of years, but I think I have most of the more recent stuff that has been posted.

[BansheeOne]

For the Bundeswehr, the OOBs drafted by TankNetters Dragoner and Major66 of which the field and territorial army parts are also available on Pat's site pretty much remain the ultimate word; they would just need to be semi-translated to English and somewhat adapted to the format. The other forces including the BGS and even German civil defense organizations (plus other series on allied forces in Germany) are available here, for example; except part 7 (TO&Es), which I'm most interested in. Anybody knows if its out there somewhere or the guys never got around to do it? 

[LouieD]

4 hours ago, PCallahan said:

Hi All -- 

I'm still around and reading the board pretty regularly.  I'll dredge up the most recent edition I have to act as a working base.  I haven't updated it in a couple of years, but I think I have most of the more recent stuff that has been posted.

Pat!!! It’s good to here from you! Sorry, I didn’t want to seem like I was stepping on your toes, but with all the U.S. stuff I have been finding recently (never mind British Army) I thought we should start updating again. How do you want to go about it?

[Perun]

Nice idea mates. For nonaligned I could take Yugoslav people's army. I have full and accurate OOB for army/navy/air force for that period

[Perun]

Shall we update Warsaw Pact to 🙂

 

[PCallahan]

Give me a couple of days to figure out where all my files stand... had some loss of data, started going through all my backups (why did I use so many different one?).  I had a versions that had all the UK stuff updated, need to find it.

[LouieD]

Pat,

When you are ready give us the go ahead. I can update the UK and slowly update the U.S. with the new information I have found.

 

[Perun]

For another nonaligned I have OOB for Albanian people's army (army and air force) but it is not complete. Last time Albania didnt even mentioned.

[Stuart Galbraith]

16 hours ago, Perun said:

Shall we update Warsaw Pact to 🙂

 

The top end of the 1980's is really difficult. They were converting some formations into super Infantry Divisions with 4 Motor Rifle Regiments.

 

[LouieD]

I say we do the NATO ORBAT first and see how the work shakes out. 
we can start the Pact ORBAT based on this site…

http://www.ww2.dk/new/army/Army.htm

[Captain Hurricane]

4 hours ago, LouieD said:

I say we do the NATO ORBAT first and see how the work shakes out. 
we can start the Pact ORBAT based on this site…

http://www.ww2.dk/new/army/Army.htm

For the Warsaw Pact stuff at least can I point out that the GSFG and the East German armed forces circa 1988 has been pretty comprehensively covered by OOB's (and TOE's for the GSFG OOB's) put together in German by "Alterfritz". These are available to be freely downloaded from the same website mentioned by Banshee One further up the thread i.e https://www.relikte.com/literatur.htm

FWIW they seem to be complied to the same level of detail and research that Dragoner and others did with their West German and US material.

[Perun]

Do we have some specific date limit in 1989. or... I am asking because at that time YPA was in process of reorganisation wich was mainly ended at the middle of 1990. For 1989. i have OOB wich is abbout 80-90% correct but for 1990. I have 99% accurate OOB. Diference is minimal but 99% is better then 80-90%

Edited November 10, 2021 by Perun

[Stuart Galbraith]

If you all are serious about the Warsaw pact OOB, would the USMLM reports for that period be of any use?

Or failing that, ive made a file up showing witnessed equipment changes by USMLM, and there is a USMLM OOB which I borrowed off their website.

 

[Perun]

1 hour ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

If you all are serious about the Warsaw pact OOB, would the USMLM reports for that period be of any use?

Or failing that, ive made a file up showing witnessed equipment changes by USMLM, and there is a USMLM OOB which I borrowed off their website.

 

Would you like to share your data with us

[RETAC21]

14 hours ago, Captain Hurricane said:

For the Warsaw Pact stuff at least can I point out that the GSFG and the East German armed forces circa 1988 has been pretty comprehensively covered by OOB's (and TOE's for the GSFG OOB's) put together in German by "Alterfritz". These are available to be freely downloaded from the same website mentioned by Banshee One further up the thread i.e https://www.relikte.com/literatur.htm

FWIW they seem to be complied to the same level of detail and research that Dragoner and others did with their West German and US material.

The Group of Forces (Western, South, North) have been comprehensively covered. Districts are another matter, but the real challenge is the Hungarian Army.

[Perun]

Hungarian army was cowered in "3rd world war in central europe" and also in above mentioned link. I have some data to.

Soviet districts are cowered to, more or less. There is two excelent book on russian, IIRC Tomsk and Feskov

Edited November 10, 2021 by Perun

[Stuart Galbraith]

21 hours ago, Perun said:

Would you like to share your data with us

Ill see what I can do at the weekend, Id have to rejig my dropbox account.

[TrustMe]

The Osprey book "Tank War - central front NATO v Warsaw Pact" gives a division level review of the armies involved in around the 1989 era. It however doesn't go into detail on the divisions other than giving a overall number of tanks owned by the various countries.

For example from what I understand a Soviet Tank Division had around two thirds the personnel of the equivalent US Tank Division so tread carefully. 

 

[Perun]

Hi mates, one question. Should I put english name of YPA units, should I put it in croatian/serbian or bouth? I prefere bouth (with english translation in parents). 

[Stuart Galbraith]

Here is a little something I put together based upon all the USMLM reports. ITs distills down the exercises each year, and the new equipment observed, as well as some orbat changes.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kqmj869tc5mrysx/Changes1.pdf?dl=0