Authoritarism in Hungary and Poland

[futon]

15 minutes ago, sunday said:

The word is suicidal, not invalid. If in a conflict one party escalates by using some methods, the other party should do the same or risk losing. 

There was a process of de-Nazification, de-Fascistization, and something like that in Japan after WWII. The methods used were quite in the Authoritarian side, as were implemented by occupation armies, and the end result are societies with better rule of law, and quite free elections.

After the fall of the Berlin wall, Communists were left in the education, and media organization of Western countries. Perhaps that was a mistake, and I am not referring to a lack of one-way helicopter trips here, nor of putting them in reeducation camps.

Finally, I have read that in this matter of Hungary/Poland against a Leftist-dominated EU, it is likely that Adenauer, Schuman, De Gasperi, or Monnet would have sided with Hungary and Poland.

 

That result end game is not enough to justify on moral grounds the whole plan to occupy Japan. The biggest factor that enabled the US to successfully foster an entirely non-militarized Japan was that the US remained in the region to fight comnunism. Had the US left after signing end if the war on the battleship, Japan would be right back to "militerization" because of Japan's neighborhood. 

[sunday]

10 minutes ago, futon said:

That result end game is not enough to justify on moral grounds the whole plan to occupy Japan.

No, the justification is that Japan lost the war.

[Der Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, urbanoid said:

 Maybe. Having principles and abiding by the rules would be all great for the Republicans, if only the other side did the same. As they were/are, US conservatives were unable to conserve two genders or marriage as a union of man and woman. What's left to conserve at that point?

Well, I think that when conservatism ties its existance on issues like wether they can prevent gays from getting married they're pretty much finished anyway.

I'm glad that in the recent elections in my country and the ongoing coalition talks, we still have a lively debate about fiscal conservatism and social & economic policies, not just the kind of cultural warfare/defense that passes for conservatism these days.

Edited October 14, 2021 by Der Zeitgeist

[rmgill]

2 hours ago, jmsaari said:

I think it was DKtanker(?) on first page who asked how is this different from Pelosi admonishing media for being uncooperative or smth to that effect. The difference is talking vs doing, Orban has been able to actually do that. You'd have a decent analogy if Biden managed to actually packed the SCOTUS with a buch of partisan democrat supporters & drove Foxnews & similar off the air...

Alex Jones. New York Post. There are others. All silenced to protect the DNC and Biden. We have Weinstein doing the same through media and influence. 

2 hours ago, jmsaari said:

that's the issue with Hungary. I hope that's what you are missing, and you don't seriously think what's going on is actually just fine because he happens to be on an anti-LGBT-agenda.

Steelman what he's trying to do. That's what I'm pointing towards with looking at actual issues in the US. Otherwise we can just ask, why do you think Italian Fascism bears any relation to what's going on in Hungary? 

2 hours ago, jmsaari said:

And that's in no way any defence of any of what's going on in the US or BLM/antifa types getting the pass for rioting & media painting a picture of police violence that's misleading to say the least unless one spends considerable time digging the actual statistics & details of the big-news cases... but ends wouldn't justify the means even if you were to take Orban at face value for trying to defend western values, which would be giving him ludicrous amount of benefit of the doubt, way, way past the point any is warranted.

Hungary had how many years of damage due to Communism? What about under the Ottomans and issues with Islam. Germany bans certain free speech avenues due to their issues with the 3rd Reich. Sometimes we see that stuff. Is it right? Probably not. Is the cure worse than the disease? 

[sunday]

Authoritarism?

[rmgill]

Imagine folks reporting on and covering/discussing the rape of a minor and the resulting discussion gains a Youtube Strike for abuse/harassment of LGBT folks. Does that count as Authoritarianism? 

[sunday]

21 minutes ago, rmgill said:

Imagine folks reporting on and covering/discussing the rape of a minor and the resulting discussion gains a Youtube Strike for abuse/harassment of LGBT folks. Does that count as Authoritarianism? 

Ancient Regime. Different laws for different social groups.

[urbanoid]

2 hours ago, Der Zeitgeist said:

Well, I think that when conservatism ties its existance on issues like wether they can prevent gays from getting married they're pretty much finished anyway.

I'm glad that in the recent elections in my country and the ongoing coalition talks, we still have a lively debate about fiscal conservatism and social & economic policies, not just the kind of cultural warfare/defense that passes for conservatism these days.

Conservatism never prevented gays from getting married. When they are of legal age they can marry, with someone of opposite (biological) sex. Also, for the US it took some 10 years or less from gay marriage to legal child abuse, i.e. 'trans children'. 'Trans children' are like vegetarian cats, you know who's making their choices. When someone says that slippery slope doesn't exist, there's no place for debate, the only answer should be sarcastic laugh. 

What makes things worse, woke NPC crowd around the world imports all those idiocies from the US. I'm barely past 30 and I see things that some 10-15 years ago I'd never have believed are even possible. Absolute clown world.

I used to look up to the US, now I consider it an absolute shitshow. 

[sunday]

Ah, that German pragmatism that welcomed Hitler because his economic policies, and later would consider von Stauffenberg and his companions a bunch of traitors to the Fatherland...

[Der Zeitgeist]

25 minutes ago, sunday said:

Ah, that German pragmatism that welcomed Hitler because his economic policies, and later would consider von Stauffenberg and his companions a bunch of traitors to the Fatherland...

Will you stop being an asshole at some point, maybe when you grow up?

[rmgill]

Maybe he should put a Hitler downfall meme in his user icon?

[sunday]

3 hours ago, rmgill said:

Maybe he should put a Hitler downfall meme in his user icon?

Not going to ask.

[MiloMorai]

4 hours ago, sunday said:

Ah, that German pragmatism that welcomed Hitler because his economic policies, and later would consider von Stauffenberg and his companions a bunch of traitors to the Fatherland...

Well he could change the names and the country.

Trump Putting U.S. in 'Really Big Trouble,' Says His Ex-National Security Adviser (msn.com)

[sunday]

[Simon Tan]

If Orban and the Poles would just pay homage to Brussels, all would be fine. The Czechs were just enocuraged to get rid of a dirty lefty after all.

[DB]

Quote

[M]en judge generally more by the eye than by the hand, because it belongs to everybody to see you, to few to come in touch with you. Every one sees what you appear to be, few really know what you are, and those few dare not oppose themselves to the opinion of the many, who have the majesty of the state to defend them; and in the actions of all men, and especially of princes, which it is not prudent to challenge, one judges by the result.

For that reason, let a prince have the credit of conquering and holding his state, the means will always be considered honest, and he will be praised by everybody because the vulgar are always taken by what a thing seems to be and by what comes of it; and in the world there are only the vulgar, for the few find a place there only when the many have no ground to rest on.

If you're having trouble with this, it's the probable source of "The ends justify the means".

 

[Angrybk]

Just waiting for Fox to mention Hungary’s extremely strong gun control laws!

[Angrybk]

On 10/14/2021 at 3:51 AM, Der Zeitgeist said:

I guess the question is if US-Republican leaning folks want to be similar to the eastern European right wing.

I think it’s a good subject for a PhD thesis, but imho the Bannon types were heavily influenced by Western European far right parties’ thinking (blood and soil, anti-immigrant, anti-military adventures, strong welfare state for the natives, etc). The recent Hungary fapping is mostly just Tucker Carlson trying to own the Libs because the Libs don’t like Hungary. 

[BansheeOne]

The irony being that like their left-wing counterparts, European far right-wingers are fundamentally anti-American in their political outlook - see again Orban's rejection of classical "free to do anything that doesn't infringe upon the freedom of others" liberalism that forms the basis of traditional American individualism, of the American type of capitalism, citing recent US cynicism about their own system as an excuse to go for competing Eastern models of society. Which are not too far from what much of Europe looked like not too long ago; and the European Right always feared, rightfully in the end, that American liberalism would subvert traditional authoritarian-trending European systems.

I've said it before, both European left- and right-wingers hate America for it's "meddling" in world affairs, its "cultural imperialism", "colonization of Europe" etc. which runs counter to their own values; the former liked Obama for the same reasons the latter liked Trump, because either looked like a more European type of politician in their own mold who might reduce US global influence and interference, except to their liking. The further irony being that traditional European statist political values were introduced via Bannon and Trump to be embraced by the American Right which always accused their Left of trying to make the US more European.

The "gotcha" moment of contemporary American political debate where you support anything the other camp hates, just because, certainly plays a role in the appreciation of US right-wingers for the current Hungarian and Polish governments, in that it feeds on selective perception of convenient details. They're anti-libs, anti-EU, anti-refugees, anti-LGBTQWERTY, so must be good guys. That they're also big on statism and welfare, embracing China and Turkey etc. tends to be ignored, mostly because the sources promoting those views don't mention it.

But there is a general acceptance of Eastern authoritarism creeping in along that way. It has been notable in an appreciation of Putin Russia for some time, in part as a reaction to the whole Russian collusion thing promoted by the American Left against Trump. But recently I've seen (if somewhat grudging) cheers by US right-wingers for China banning feminin-looking men from TV. Which might indicate another trend of following the lead of their European counterparts, who are full of praise for the emerging Chinese turn back to conservative economic and societal values.

[rmgill]

12 hours ago, BansheeOne said:

The "gotcha" moment of contemporary American political debate where you support anything the other camp hates, just because,

This fails because it ignores how folks like the Bret Weinstein, an avowed lefty, can go to speak in front of/to conservatives and they're fine talking about the details. 

There's a whole camp of hard lefties in the US who are unhappy with anything that's not Mao/Stalin/Marx in objective ends but with the LGBT/BLM zeitgeist smeared on top like icing on a cake. They just don't want anyone saying that's not Chocolate. 

[DKTanker]

1 hour ago, rmgill said:

This fails because it ignores how folks like the Bret Weinstein, an avowed lefty, can go to speak in front of/to conservatives and they're fine talking about the details. 

There's a whole camp of hard lefties in the US who are unhappy with anything that's not Mao/Stalin/Marx in objective ends but with the LGBT/BLM zeitgeist smeared on top like icing on a cake. They just don't want anyone saying that's not Chocolate.

At times Leftist mobs will also threaten violence, or even commit violence, so venues will refuse, and have refused, to host not-leftist speakers.  This has been quite acceptable in the United States for over a decade now.

[Angrybk]

On 10/16/2021 at 1:10 AM, BansheeOne said:

The irony being that like their left-wing counterparts, European far right-wingers are fundamentally anti-American in their political outlook - see again Orban's rejection of classical "free to do anything that doesn't infringe upon the freedom of others" liberalism that forms the basis of traditional American individualism, of the American type of capitalism, citing recent US cynicism about their own system as an excuse to go for competing Eastern models of society. Which are not too far from what much of Europe looked like not too long ago; and the European Right always feared, rightfully in the end, that American liberalism would subvert traditional authoritarian-trending European systems.

I've said it before, both European left- and right-wingers hate America for it's "meddling" in world affairs, its "cultural imperialism", "colonization of Europe" etc. which runs counter to their own values; the former liked Obama for the same reasons the latter liked Trump, because either looked like a more European type of politician in their own mold who might reduce US global influence and interference, except to their liking. The further irony being that traditional European statist political values were introduced via Bannon and Trump to be embraced by the American Right which always accused their Left of trying to make the US more European.

The "gotcha" moment of contemporary American political debate where you support anything the other camp hates, just because, certainly plays a role in the appreciation of US right-wingers for the current Hungarian and Polish governments, in that it feeds on selective perception of convenient details. They're anti-libs, anti-EU, anti-refugees, anti-LGBTQWERTY, so must be good guys. That they're also big on statism and welfare, embracing China and Turkey etc. tends to be ignored, mostly because the sources promoting those views don't mention it.

But there is a general acceptance of Eastern authoritarism creeping in along that way. It has been notable in an appreciation of Putin Russia for some time, in part as a reaction to the whole Russian collusion thing promoted by the American Left against Trump. But recently I've seen (if somewhat grudging) cheers by US right-wingers for China banning feminin-looking men from TV. Which might indicate another trend of following the lead of their European counterparts, who are full of praise for the emerging Chinese turn back to conservative economic and societal values.

Although I also think that people (including me) are probably overthinking it a bit too much, it's basically "give me and people like me free stuff, don't let people who aren't like us get free stuff because they're bad."

[EchoFiveMike]

So basically, the thing is that nation-states should work for the people that comprise them, not foreigners.  

How radical.  S/F....Ken M

[lucklucky]

Hungary, Poland or Canada?

No recourse?

 

[R011]

No resources sounds overly harsh and possibly in violation of the union contract.