Authoritarism in Hungary and Poland

[Rick]

5 hours ago, sunday said:

To be fair, results, and the perception of those results are what matter.

I do not see how the fact of an operation being planned makes less worse a badly executed operation. If anything, a good plan that results in a bad outcome is still more damning for the people realizing the plan.

 

5 hours ago, sunday said:

To be fair, results, and the perception of those results are what matter.

I do not see how the fact of an operation being planned makes less worse a badly executed operation. If anything, a good plan that results in a bad outcome is still more damning for the people realizing the plan.

Cannot disagree with both of these posts. 

[glenn239]

16 hours ago, urbanoid said:

Well, your impression is largely wrong then. 

The USA has an endless supply of weak allies in tough neighborhoods that want to borrow American strength for their own agenda.  Poland is one of these.  The argument is always some half baked pile of steaming horseshit about Western values and international law, to the purpose of manipulating Washington into doing the bidding of weak powers.

[urbanoid]

13 minutes ago, glenn239 said:

The USA has an endless supply of weak allies in tough neighborhoods that want to borrow American strength for their own agenda.  Poland is one of these.  The argument is always some half baked pile of steaming horseshit about Western values and international law, to the purpose of manipulating Washington into doing the bidding of weak powers.

Yep, allies are using the US, the US is also using its allies and it's not defending them out of the goodness of the American hearts - wow, what a discovery! 

You're talking as if the US isn't interested in being a hegemon, when it clearly is and has been since the 1940s.

[sunday]

44 minutes ago, urbanoid said:

You're talking as if the US isn't interested in being a hegemon, when it clearly is and has been since the 1940s.

When the armed services are used to promote woke agenda points, in spite of readiness, it is not so clear that country wants to be the Hegemon, unless the aforementioned country is contemptuous of the military prowess of the aspirants to hegemony.

To steal a quote, Whom the gods would destroy, they first make mad.

[old_goat]

18 hours ago, urbanoid said:

At the same time I obviously would want to reform the entities comprising such an order internally as well, as my comfort when visiting e.g. Italy or southern France is interrupted by 'lesser beings' (disgusting third-world non-westerners) infesting those countries. 

I think you are a bit naive if you think it is possible. Sadly, for some countries, (UK, France, Sweden) it isnt anymore. And this list will grow in the coming years.

I'll explain why it is too late now. OK, you want reforms in the mentioned countries. How would you like to do it? You absolutely have to deal with 3 groups of people that consist the vast majority:

1, The immigrants. They are too numerous to deport, not possible to convince them to leave, and also lots of them live in these countries since too long time. The only thing you can do is... But we are not nazis. So a big no-no.

2, The woke/marxists. Completely impossible to convince them to change their ways and support you, they are totally brainwashed. They will always be utterly hostile towards you. Unfortunately, the majority of youth (so the future) belong to this group. 

3, The normies. Yes, it is possible to convert some of them to your case, but only a few. The majority will always comform to society, that is ruled by the woke. Normies always play safe, they will never risk their little lives. They may be aware of the problems of the society, but do not care. All they want is their comfortable homes, their netflix shows, and other mainstream bullshit to forget about those problems. 

You fail to recognize one very important fact. If you want reform, you need a revolution. And such revolutions are not possible anymore. Its not the early 20th century. You need people, lots of them, who have nothing to lose. And most normies definitely do not belong to this group. 

[urbanoid]

2 hours ago, old_goat said:

I think you are a bit naive if you think it is possible. Sadly, for some countries, (UK, France, Sweden) it isnt anymore. And this list will grow in the coming years.

I'll explain why it is too late now. OK, you want reforms in the mentioned countries. How would you like to do it? You absolutely have to deal with 3 groups of people that consist the vast majority:

1, The immigrants. They are too numerous to deport, not possible to convince them to leave, and also lots of them live in these countries since too long time. The only thing you can do is... But we are not nazis. So a big no-no.

2, The woke/marxists. Completely impossible to convince them to change their ways and support you, they are totally brainwashed. They will always be utterly hostile towards you. Unfortunately, the majority of youth (so the future) belong to this group. 

3, The normies. Yes, it is possible to convert some of them to your case, but only a few. The majority will always comform to society, that is ruled by the woke. Normies always play safe, they will never risk their little lives. They may be aware of the problems of the society, but do not care. All they want is their comfortable homes, their netflix shows, and other mainstream bullshit to forget about those problems. 

You fail to recognize one very important fact. If you want reform, you need a revolution. And such revolutions are not possible anymore. Its not the early 20th century. You need people, lots of them, who have nothing to lose. And most normies definitely do not belong to this group. 

Nothing is over until we say it's over. Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?

[glenn239]

7 hours ago, urbanoid said:

Yep, allies are using the US, the US is also using its allies and it's not defending them out of the goodness of the American hearts - wow, what a discovery! 

The United States does not require an alliance with Poland.   The United States did just fine with Poland in the Warsaw Pact.  As you beat your drums and make lofty claims about common ideologies and goals, try to remember one thing.  The USA will do just fine without Poland.  They don't need you.  Not at all.  Tread carefully.

[urbanoid]

1 minute ago, glenn239 said:

The United States does not require an alliance with Poland.   The United States did just fine with Poland in the Warsaw Pact.  As you beat your drums and make lofty claims about common ideologies and goals, try to remember one thing.  The USA will do just fine without Poland.  They don't need you.  Not at all.  Tread carefully.

In theory the US doesn't need Japan, South Korea, Europe in general, Gulfies or Israel either, so what? 

We absolutely ARE treading carefully, largely in sync with the allies on both sides of the pond. 

[rmgill]

39 minutes ago, urbanoid said:

In theory the US doesn't need Japan, South Korea, Europe in general, Gulfies or Israel either, so what? 

We absolutely ARE treading carefully, largely in sync with the allies on both sides of the pond. 

Japan is USS Aircraft Carrier #2. The UK is USS Aircraft Carrier #1. 

[urbanoid]

1 minute ago, rmgill said:

Japan is USS Aircraft Carrier #2. The UK is USS Aircraft Carrier #1. 

And how do you think e.g. Japan or UK would like to continue being US aircraft carriers if the US started abandoning 'less important' treaty allies? What would such moves mean for US position in the world? 

[rmgill]

So long as it dovetailed with their interests....

Has Japan been very big on over seas operations themselves? 

[urbanoid]

They've been slowly, but consistently dismantling the Article 9 of the constitution (by changing its interpretation). It's politically difficult, since despite the majority of the parliament being in favor, they fear the population may not be very keen on it. They sent soldiers to Cambodia in the 1990s ('we can't do overseas stuff, but maybe with UN mandate?'), to Iraq even without the UN mandate ('but those are non-combat troops, so why not?'). The current idea of LDP is pushing for 'collective self-defense' - 'we can't be in military alliances other than with the US, but we can do self-defense, so why not do some collective self-defense with like-minded countries, it's totally not a military alliance'. They do make some noises that they may engage in defense of Taiwan, but rather low chance that they go for it if the US doesn't. 

Yeah, another thing that will greatly damage US int'l position is if the US doesn't come to the defense of Taiwan, despite not even recognizing it officially. Perception matters and the current one is that the US will come to the defense of even this unofficial ally. The US enjoys its current position because of the alliances all over the world, those alliances exist because it's believed that the US will come to defense of said allies if the need arises. Throw Taiwan under the bus and it will have effect in Europe. Do the same to some 'unimportant' Estonia and it will have consequences in East Asia. At this point even abandoning Ukraine would damage US credibility and credibility matters.

[Ssnake]

12 hours ago, old_goat said:

1, The immigrants. They are too numerous to deport, not possible to convince them to leave, and also lots of them live in these countries since too long time. The only thing you can do is... But we are not nazis. So a big no-no.

Okay, we agree on the last part. I also think that the majority of immigrants have no desire to fundamentally change the culture of their host countries. There are some who do, yes, and they need to be deported where possible, and can otherwise be kept in check by other means.

12 hours ago, old_goat said:

2, The woke/marxists. Completely impossible to convince them to change their ways and support you, they are totally brainwashed. They will always be utterly hostile towards you. Unfortunately, the majority of youth (so the future) belong to this group. 

Historically, the majority of lefties stopped being marxists as they grew older. Admittedly, a lot of them successfully infiltrated culture and education and are reinfecting the youth with their stupid and dangerous ideologies. But the "inevitability" upon which your argument hinges is bogus. People change all the time, and usually abandon the more stupid ideals of their youth. For a lot of the "trans" kids the damage has been done and is permanent. They will be your staunchest future allies once that they realize what has been done to them, and why.

 

As to your #3, the open disdain you have for the majority of societies is telling a lot more about you than about the societies that you criticize.

[seahawk]

12 hours ago, old_goat said:

I think you are a bit naive if you think it is possible. Sadly, for some countries, (UK, France, Sweden) it isnt anymore. And this list will grow in the coming years.

I'll explain why it is too late now. OK, you want reforms in the mentioned countries. How would you like to do it? You absolutely have to deal with 3 groups of people that consist the vast majority:

1, The immigrants. They are too numerous to deport, not possible to convince them to leave, and also lots of them live in these countries since too long time. The only thing you can do is... But we are not nazis. So a big no-no.

2, The woke/marxists. Completely impossible to convince them to change their ways and support you, they are totally brainwashed. They will always be utterly hostile towards you. Unfortunately, the majority of youth (so the future) belong to this group. 

3, The normies. Yes, it is possible to convert some of them to your case, but only a few. The majority will always comform to society, that is ruled by the woke. Normies always play safe, they will never risk their little lives. They may be aware of the problems of the society, but do not care. All they want is their comfortable homes, their netflix shows, and other mainstream bullshit to forget about those problems. 

You fail to recognize one very important fact. If you want reform, you need a revolution. And such revolutions are not possible anymore. Its not the early 20th century. You need people, lots of them, who have nothing to lose. And most normies definitely do not belong to this group. 

Immigration is the tool to make revolutions impossible, because it creates a large, potentially violent group of people that will always depend on state subsidies. It is about replacing the local population with a population that will never be able to care for itself.

[Stuart Galbraith]

14 hours ago, urbanoid said:

And how do you think e.g. Japan or UK would like to continue being US aircraft carriers if the US started abandoning 'less important' treaty allies? What would such moves mean for US position in the world? 

oh, oh, oh, I know that one! Thats a 'you arent interested in our security, so piss on yours' sort of answer, isnt it?

14 hours ago, rmgill said:

So long as it dovetailed with their interests....

Has Japan been very big on over seas operations themselves? 

Japan is now getting very serious about Taiwan. They know if Taiwan goes, their own security is going to be on the rocks. So if the US abandoned Taiwan, why are they going to host your navy in Japan, when its a No1 Chinese target? And fairly obviously, they arent.

So why would the Europeans not feel the same way?Its not in our interest you abandon any of Europe. Because quite clearly if you can abandon Poland or Romania, you can abandon us. This is realpolitik 101, and im amazed so many of you havent figured this one out. Ukraine, Poland, Baltic states, you may object to the linkage, but its fairly obviously there, not least in Russian minds.

[old_goat]

11 hours ago, Ssnake said:

I also think that the majority of immigrants have no desire to fundamentally change the culture of their host countries. There are some who do, yes, and they need to be deported where possible, and can otherwise be kept in check by other means.

This is only true when it comes to asian immigrants, with buddhist, hindu or other oriental religions or atheists. (for example vietnamese immigrants in hungary integrated very well, most people, including myself have zero problems with them)

Muslims on the other hand are very problematic. Islam itself is an extremist ideology. They are easily radicalized. And what is worse, research shows that islamic immigration sooner or later always result in the destruction of host culture. Unlike asians, they definitely want to change the culture.

11 hours ago, Ssnake said:

Historically, the majority of lefties stopped being marxists as they grew older.

And become normies. See point 3 for the problems with them.

11 hours ago, Ssnake said:

For a lot of the "trans" kids the damage has been done and is permanent. They will be your staunchest future allies once that they realize what has been done to them, and why.

Except that most of them commit suicide before that...

11 hours ago, Ssnake said:

As to your #3, the open disdain you have for the majority of societies is telling a lot more about you than about the societies that you criticize.

But if it is how things work? Normies definitely are the ones who play safe, and will very rarely support radical/reformist groups, and very rarely have the courage to go against the state. Germany is an excellent example in europe. It is normies who guarantee that mainstream parties like CDU, CSU, SPD win elections all the time. Yes I know AfD is gaining power, but it is unfortunately a very slow process.