Authoritarism in Hungary and Poland

[Mikel2]

I keep hearing that Poland and Hungary are sliding into authoritarianism and fascism.  Given that every person to the left of Trotsky has been called a fascist and a racist, I tend to look at such claims with skepticism. 

I'm not familiar with Polish or Hungarian politics, but I've been told that the Western left is upset at these two because they hold positions - such as WRT immigration or the alphabet people-  that were perfectly mainstream in the West just a few years ago, before the culture was conquered by woke ideology.  Is this true?

[sunday]

I think this Spanish blogger has a proper position on the subject:

https://www.outono.net/elentir/2021/09/30/hungary-and-poland-yes-spain-no-the-reasons-for-the-leftist-bias-of-the-european-commission/

https://www.outono.net/elentir/2021/10/07/the-constitutional-court-of-poland-puts-limits-on-the-eu-its-ruling-k-3-21-says-this/

https://www.outono.net/elentir/2021/10/10/nine-european-countries-that-prioritized-their-sovereignty-over-the-eu-before-poland/

 

Edited October 13, 2021 by sunday

[Simon Tan]

They are only a problem because they dont obey the uberEuropeans. Dejavu. 

[bojan]

1 hour ago, Mikel2 said:

...I'm not familiar with Polish or Hungarian politics, but I've been told that the Western left is upset at these two because they hold positions - such as WRT immigration or the alphabet people-  that were perfectly mainstream in the West just a few years ago, before the culture was conquered by woke ideology.  Is this true?

While "west" is upset mainly about that, there is a real slide (let's call it "Putin light style") toward authoritarianism. And it is far from only Poland and Hungary. Mainly in pressuring media that do not want to champion the truth of the currently ruling party, using state media to channel "party truth", constitution being bent if not outright broken, courts falling to the "party truth" etc.

Some of those symptoms are in early stage, some are quite advanced.

[urbanoid]

I'm more worried, and BY FAR, about their economic policies than their authoritarianism.

[Ivanhoe]

In the midst of the COVID plandemic, we all need to recalibrate our Authoritarianometers.

In the US, one of the acid tests for rhetoric is "Which way are the boats going?"

Are citizens in Poland, Hungary, et al trying to escape on flimsy rafts in shark-infested waters?

If not, why not focus attention on those crapholes like Cuba, Venezuela, etc.?

[Markus Becker]

4 hours ago, Mikel2 said:

I keep hearing that Poland and Hungary are sliding into authoritarianism and fascism.  Given that every person to the left of Trotsky has been called a fascist and a racist, I tend to look at such claims with skepticism. 

I'm not familiar with Polish or Hungarian politics, but I've been told that the Western left is upset at these two because they hold positions - such as WRT immigration or the alphabet people-  that were perfectly mainstream in the West just a few years ago, before the culture was conquered by woke ideology.  Is this true?

They are just not ok with the idea of following all and any orders from Brussels. 

And yes, they are where we were 20 or 30 years ago: Sane. 

[bojan]

2 hours ago, urbanoid said:

I'm more worried, and BY FAR, about their economic policies than their authoritarianism.

One is a part of the other. Economic policies are a means to tighten their control, control is a way to prevent criticism when economic policies fail.

[bojan]

1 hour ago, Ivanhoe said:

...Are citizens in Poland, Hungary, et al trying to escape on flimsy rafts in shark-infested waters?...

There is a very long road between first signs of problems and trying to escape on rafts. Thing is that you can not ignore first signs, just like you don't ignore a non-life threatening wound. If you do, road will continue downward.

Edited October 13, 2021 by bojan

[DKTanker]

3 hours ago, bojan said:

While "west" is upset mainly about that, there is a real slide (let's call it "Putin light style") toward authoritarianism. And it is far from only Poland and Hungary. Mainly in pressuring media that do not want to champion the truth of the currently ruling party, using state media to channel "party truth", constitution being bent if not outright broken, courts falling to the "party truth" etc.

Some of those symptoms are in early stage, some are quite advanced.

Are you talking about Poland and Hungary or the United States?  It was just yesterday that the Speaker of the House of Representatives, Nancy Pelosi, third in line for the presidency, admonished "state" media for not selling The Party's agenda with enough enthusiasm.

[bojan]

It is the same process everywhere.

[rmgill]

2 hours ago, Ivanhoe said:

In the midst of the COVID plandemic, we all need to recalibrate our Authoritarianometers.

In the US, one of the acid tests for rhetoric is "Which way are the boats going?"

Are citizens in Poland, Hungary, et al trying to escape on flimsy rafts in shark-infested waters?

If not, why not focus attention on those crapholes like Cuba, Venezuela, etc.?

Edited October 13, 2021 by rmgill

[rmgill]

1 hour ago, bojan said:

One is a part of the other. Economic policies are a means to tighten their control, control is a way to prevent criticism when economic policies fail.

MAybe. A less regulatory economic policy would in fact loosen control but still encourage development and industry. 

What are the policies in specific? I know little about what's going on in Hungary other than some high level stuff that is characterized as fascist but looks more like bog standard encourage your home country stuff. I've even considered traveling there to see what it's all about. 

Edited October 13, 2021 by rmgill

[bojan]

Both Hungary and Poland are great places to visit. But don't expect to get what is going on w/o living there for a while.

[lucklucky]

I wonder why Mikel2 did not included the USA, also UK, France and other European countries in the list not only Hungary and Poland.

You have people being fired by taxpayer funded organisations because they profess "Incorrect" ideas that are common to a large part of population of those countries.

[Mikel2]

Here in the US we have government intimidating social media companies so that speech that they don't like be restricted.  We have laws of very questionable constitutionality such as Wilson's 1917 Espionage Act, applied by Obama against journalists more times than all previous presidents combined.  Government also forces private companies to restrict services to those whose legal activities they dislike (and are constitutionally protected, such as gun manufacturers). Basically government using the private sector to do things they themselves are not allowed to do.

All of these abuses have one thing in common.

But let's not turn this thread into another US politics thread.   I'd love to hear specifics of creeping fascism and authoritarianism in PL and HU.

 

 

Edited October 13, 2021 by Mikel2

[rmgill]

7 minutes ago, lucklucky said:

I wonder why Mikel2 did not included the USA, also UK, France and other European countries in the list not only Hungary and Poland.

You have people being fired by taxpayer funded organisations because they profess "Incorrect" ideas that are common to a large part of population of those countries.

Because Commies controlling everything isn't authoritarianism. 😉 It's following the science, caring about people and doing what is good for people. 

[lucklucky]

A part of what happens in Poland and Hungary is also a reaction to what is happening in the West.

[bojan]

Just now, lucklucky said:

A part of what happens in Poland and Hungary is also a reaction to what is happening in the West.

It is being sold as such, but is more of the same shit.

[lucklucky]

It is not the same opinions that are affected, so partially is not the same shit.

[bojan]

Authoritarianism is an authoritarianism, be it of the left, right or center slant. Hence same shit.

[rmgill]

We had people who hated Trump saying that the Feds NOT doing things or the Feds preventing states from doing things that restricted rights or business was authoritarianism. 

Please define what the action is and how it is authoritarianism because just saying there is X going on and not quantifying it or defining it is not very useful. 

[lucklucky]

It is not same because it is important to not have a dominant authoritarianism strand.

The fact that France is not affect as much as Anglosphere is because you have the other side:  Front Nationale. So the left cannot play unhindered like in UK, USA, Australian, NZ etc.

Edited October 13, 2021 by lucklucky

[bojan]

 

Whatever.

[lucklucky]

The best way to know who have systemic political domination is who is authorised by police to make political violence unhindered. In UK and US it is clearly the Left.

 

And the best way to preserve freedom is when both sides can go to the streets. The problem is that the moderates do not do that by their nature.

 

Edited October 13, 2021 by lucklucky