Australia to Get Nuclear Submarines

[TrustMe]

7 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Well... its tight even with 7 Astutes. That said, the RN is pioneering a concept in the Gulf, where they forward deploy a Type 23 Frigate, and have the crews exchange out after a few months. it seems to work. It would clearly be rather more awkward with an Astute, because you want to ensure that each crew that rotates in, is aware of any outstanding maintenance issues with each boat. But it should be achievable, and if there are Australians permanently on board, it would make that 'memory' easier to achieve. This sounds awkward, but bear in mind we are pretty much already doing the same thing with our Vanguard boats. Indeed, I wonder if it would be viable to forward deploy HMS Vanguard now she is back in action.

Ultimately I think this could be achieved on the present budget, the only real cost is going to be flying crews out there and back. Maybe we can get a good deal out of Qantas...

Fully agree though, that budget needs to go back to 3 percent. And its increasingly poor excuses for not doing it.

Submarines don't work well in the Persian Gulf due to the high salt level of the water. The only country that has submarines in the Gulf is Iran, but they tend to rust quite quickly.

[Josh]

The USN has definitely operated boats there before, though I would assume it does so rarely. I've never heard of the salinity being a problem but most of the gulf is likely too shallow for a large nuke boat. Additionally there's a lot of ship traffic which is dangerous for boats that largely can't submerge past periscope depth; there was a 688 class boat that got run over by a landing ship years ago. Entire sail was replaced. I want to say it was the Hartford.

[Daan]

The British PM has announced that the Australians are going to train the Astute class: https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2022/09/australian-submariners-to-train-on-royal-navy-newly-commissioned-hms-anson/

It would probably make sense to then extend the production line and order some Astutes, but Australia wants to spend resources and time to reinvent the wheel.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Daan

[Stuart Galbraith]

Supposedly the pwr is no longer in production, but we might be able to shoehorn a Dreadnought pwr in it. After all, I'm lead to believe the Astutes one is a development of the Vanguard one.

Supposedly the Americans have said they don't have enough production capacity to do much for the Australians. Where that leaves us is anyone's guess.

[Argus]

The problem with 'just order more Astutes" is while there is/was a production window at Barrow, we had passed the window for some key long lead items before the deal was done; in some cases allocated to future production, in others 'the line' has closed and the manufacturer has moved on to other things.  The timing would also be a bit awkward from the manpower perspective so I'm given to understand.  It's one of those multi-level things, where overall delay is bad, but in detail delay is beneficial, its never bloody simple is it. 

[Stuart Galbraith]

Yes, its a fair point. I suspect it may be viable to continue things like the pressure hull, and redesign to incorporate newer components, either American or British. Id call it an easier solution, but certainly not a slam dunk.

[Argus]

But where is the design capacity going to come from? Barrow is neck deep in SSBN and SSN(R) already, and I'm not sure kit bashing a SSN on the back of a bookies ticket is really a good idea

My gut suggests the end result might be Barrow's drumbeat picks up the tempo, and production phase of SSN(R) overlaps the tail of the Dreadnoughts by some degree between 'a bit' and 'a lot.'   

 

[glenn239]

8 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

Yes, its a fair point.

One might even say it was an astute point.

[Josh]

Given the limitations of US and UK production, it's hard to fathom (hah!) where the boats could come from. Let's wait and see what the 18 month review turns up. I personally can't really see a way forward given production limitations, but perhaps the two US yards could produce extra Virginias if enough capital investment was made up front. I think the UK rather more restricted in upping production rate. If the boats actually need to be produced in Aus, I don't see how this could possible work out until 2040.

[glenn239]

1 hour ago, Josh said:

Given the limitations of US and UK production, it's hard to fathom (hah!) 

That one made me Kilo ver laughing.

[Stuart Galbraith]

11 hours ago, Argus said:

But where is the design capacity going to come from? Barrow is neck deep in SSBN and SSN(R) already, and I'm not sure kit bashing a SSN on the back of a bookies ticket is really a good idea

My gut suggests the end result might be Barrow's drumbeat picks up the tempo, and production phase of SSN(R) overlaps the tail of the Dreadnoughts by some degree between 'a bit' and 'a lot.'   

 

Im told this is essentially what happened with Astute. The reason why the rear hull is pitched up, is because it was the only way they could get a Vanguard PWR to fit....

TBH, it doestn strike me as unviable to build sections in America and Britain, and ship them to Australia for mounting up. Not easy, but we have close relationships with the yanks, and design major components for their SSBN's. Should be doable.

[Josh]

The US at least actually already does build its boats in large complete hull sections; not sure what the British practice is. But both countries definitely are using a common four tube missile section in their boats as well, so a kit bash of AUKUS production to split up the work load among yards might actually not be as crazy as it sounds.

[Stuart Galbraith]

I'm glad I'm sounding crazy though.

I think all SSN construction is modular, they have to to get the isolation rafting in.

Edited September 9, 2022 by Stuart Galbraith

[Josh]

On 9/9/2022 at 3:00 PM, glenn239 said:

That one made me Kilo ver laughing.

Well met sir, well met.

[glenn239]

11 hours ago, Josh said:

Well met sir, well met.

Sometimes I think I should win an Oscar.

[BJE]

On 9/9/2022 at 9:04 PM, Stuart Galbraith said:

TBH, it doestn strike me as unviable to build sections in America and Britain, and ship them to Australia for mounting up. Not easy, but we have close relationships with the yanks, and design major components for their SSBN's. Should be doable.

Might be interesting to see the merge of Imperial units with SI. 😉

[Argus]

On 9/11/2022 at 10:49 PM, glenn239 said:

Sometimes I think I should win an Oscar.

I understand there's not much competition in the 'musical' category these days, so perhaps if you took Juliet for a Tango....?  

Edited September 29, 2022 by Argus

[Argus]

On 9/12/2022 at 12:49 AM, BJE said:

Might be interesting to see the merge of Imperial units with SI. 😉

That's not as much of a problem AFAIK in Australia and I'd recon the UK would be similar. Having come from Imperial and converted to Metric, the legacy of Imperial lingers on of its own accord, let alone having to deal with a drip of US stuff in any case. I don't know about anywhere else, but a socket set sold down here has both Metric and AF by default.  AF being 'Across the Flats' which is US 'English' as opposed to 'English-English' AKA Whitworth, but AF covers Whitworth if you squint, whereas Whitworth doesn't fit US fittings as conveniently. 

My makerspace is full of Millennials hating on Imperial every time they bump into it, and but still getting the job done. We have two drawers for Allen keys, one labelled Imperial Sh1t, the other Fascist Metrics .. yes I did the later one in revenge for the former, but no one is arguing  

[Stuart Galbraith]

3 hours ago, Argus said:

That's not as much of a problem AFAIK in Australia and I'd recon the UK would be similar. Having come from Imperial and converted to Metric, the legacy of Imperial lingers on of its own accord, let alone having to deal with a drip of US stuff in any case. I don't know about anywhere else, but a socket set sold down here has both Metric and AF by default.  AF being 'Across the Flats' which is US 'English' as opposed to 'English-English' AKA Whitworth, but AF covers Whitworth if you squint, whereas Whitworth doesn't fit US fittings as conveniently. 

My makerspace is full of Millennials hating on Imperial every time they bump into it, and but still getting the job done. We have two drawers for Allen keys, one labelled Imperial Sh1t, the other Fascist Metrics .. yes I did the later one in revenge for the former, but no one is arguing  

 

[sunday]

Considering that metric came from the French Revolution...

[glenn239]

10 hours ago, Argus said:

I understand there's not much competition in the 'musical' category these days, so perhaps if you took Juliet for a Tango....?  

Ug, that was good.  You are the Victor.

[Argus]

16 hours ago, sunday said:

Considering that metric came from the French Revolution...

mate, I'm dealing with tech focused '30 somethings' and down, who mostly vote Green. We are talking people who are happy to throw around Nazi and Fascist as labels but wouldn't know Mussolini from Franco from Salazar.  Calling Napoleon a proto-fascist passes without comment or objection in those circles - and yes that's including a Catalan anarchist bio-tech developer  

[Argus]

11 hours ago, glenn239 said:

Ug, that was good.  You are the Victor.

Thanks, I think I'll have a Whisky to celebrate 

[sunday]

4 hours ago, Argus said:

mate, I'm dealing with tech focused '30 somethings' and down, who mostly vote Green. We are talking people who are happy to throw around Nazi and Fascist as labels but wouldn't know Mussolini from Franco from Salazar.  Calling Napoleon a proto-fascist passes without comment or objection in those circles - and yes that's including a Catalan anarchist bio-tech developer  

Ah, the very model of modern antifascists that would not know one even if a 1930's Fascist was standing before them, wearing a black shirt, right arm up, and singing "Giovinezza" with a show of leathery lungs...

Edited September 30, 2022 by sunday

[Argus]

1 hour ago, sunday said:

Ah, the very model of modern antifascists that would not know one even if a 1930's Fascist was standing before them, wearing a black shirt, right arm up, and singing "Giovinezza" with a show of leathery lungs...

Not so sure I'd recognise 'Giovinezza' if I heard it myself, but yep. In truth they are not THAT bad, their ideology is about as shallow as their knowledge base. At least my lot don't react violently when you confound their ideas with some facts.