Australia to Get Nuclear Submarines

[Stuart Galbraith]

Not disregarded by us. The only time we have not deployed UK forces at American request is Vietnam. 

Also, it's been estimated that over 20 years, 100000 British servicemen and women deployed on operations in Afghanistan. Canada sent 40000. France, with a larger Army than both, sent just 23000.

[glenn239]

21 hours ago, Stuart Galbraith said:

. Canada sent 40000.

My cousin did two tours of frontline combat duty in A-stan around 2006.   Might be the last war that Canada actually had an armed forces for.  Now, it seems more a social project.  I'll have to get my cousin down to the Hammer one of these days to see what his impressions are on where we are right now.

Edited November 13, 2021 by glenn239

[glenn239]

On 11/12/2021 at 5:05 AM, RETAC21 said:

Or he is a "profesional" contrarian. Which would be fine, if he thought his arguments through and checked his "facts"

Dunno.  Your "facts" about the S-500 complex seem to me to be more like baseless opinions blathering jingoism to the effect that Russians are too stupid to design something the Americans don't have yet.     

While the actual Russian designers are saying things like found in this article.  Did you design the S-500?  Then stop acting like you did.

Should the West be afraid of the Russian S-500 Air Defense System? (defenseworld.net)

The Russians claim that the system can engage over the horizon and can be plugged into an air defense network—to include satellites.

Those are two key features that are bad for Taiwan - over the horizon engagements mean anywhere over Taiwan from mainland China, and being networked into a network including satellites means a network with UAV's using passive targeting and AWACS information as well.  As I already mentioned, Taiwan is so small that with these capabilities, big transports like C-17's might not be able to operate there.  

Edited November 13, 2021 by glenn239

[Daan]

What kind of OTH engagements these are, is not specified. How long such a system will survive in the envisioned conflict is also an open question.

[RETAC21]

1 hour ago, glenn239 said:

Dunno.  Your "facts" about the S-500 complex seem to me to be more like baseless opinions blathering jingoism to the effect that Russians are too stupid to design something the Americans don't have yet.     

While the actual Russian designers are saying things like found in this article.  Did you design the S-500?  Then stop acting like you did.

Should the West be afraid of the Russian S-500 Air Defense System? (defenseworld.net)

The Russians claim that the system can engage over the horizon and can be plugged into an air defense network—to include satellites.

Those are two key features that are bad for Taiwan - over the horizon engagements mean anywhere over Taiwan from mainland China, and being networked into a network including satellites means a network with UAV's using passive targeting and AWACS information as well.  As I already mentioned, Taiwan is so small that with these capabilities, big transports like C-17's might not be able to operate there.  

A wall of text that doesn't explain much at all.

How can satellites and UAVs going to detect passively something that doesn't emit? 

How are satellites going to be positioned to detct anything passively 24/7?

Which satellites and UAVs are these?

How is an AWACS going to survive in enemy airspace?

How are radars (ground and airborne) going to "see" through the mountains of Taiwan?

And what Daan asks, so we can judge.

But typically you set up a strawman. This is not about Russian systems, any missile sytem would have to solve the questions above.

That you keep on harping on the same point like it was settled it's just your usual trolling style. 

 

[Simon Tan]

Australian vaporware SSNs. Stay on target. The same factors that mitigated against nuke boats in 2015 are still in play. 

[RETAC21]

10 hours ago, Simon Tan said:

Australian vaporware SSNs. Stay on target. The same factors that mitigated against nuke boats in 2015 are still in play. 

A quick google search for Australian nuclear power plants brings up this:

"Australia has never had a nuclear power station. Australia hosts 33% of the world's uranium deposits and is the world's third largest producer of uranium after Kazakhstan and Canada. Australia's extensive low-cost coal and natural gas reserves have historically been used as strong arguments for avoiding nuclear power."

'nuff said, sport!

[DB]

I suppose that the bad feeling following the nuclear testing hasn't gone away over the years and may never dissipate enough to allow for a civilian nuclear programme.. they have other avenues to exhaust before then, I suppose. The current Australian energy mix looks a bit light on renewables given the land resource and ample sunlight, but I could only see data from 2017 so it may have improved. With Coal being so cheap relatively, there isn't much pressure to change.

[Simon Tan]

Coal bad. 

[Stuart Galbraith]

No. We just need to minimize usage to keep all those Steam Heritage lines in stock.

[Argus]

On 11/16/2021 at 5:36 AM, RETAC21 said:

A quick google search for Australian nuclear power plants brings up this:

"Australia has never had a nuclear power station. Australia hosts 33% of the world's uranium deposits and is the world's third largest producer of uranium after Kazakhstan and Canada. Australia's extensive low-cost coal and natural gas reserves have historically been used as strong arguments for avoiding nuclear power."

'nuff said, sport!

There is one nuclear reactor in Australia and it has two purposes, supporting scientific research and giving the loonies a place to stage their anti-nuke protests far enough form the CBD they don't get in the way. 

[Argus]

Turns out the reactor techs aren't the biggest manpower bottleneck the RAN are looking at in all this. They haven't needed anyone with high pressure steam qualifications in 20 years, so that trade has to be resurrected across the board.  

[Stuart Galbraith]

Again, great news for steam heritage lines.....

[urbanoid]

Maybe those subs can run on coal too? 

[Stuart Galbraith]

Oil burning steam boilers count?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_K-class_submarine

Cheap, large radius of action, erm, cheap. I think we have a winner!

[TonyE]

On 11/15/2021 at 9:11 AM, Simon Tan said:

Australian vaporware SSNs. Stay on target. The same factors that mitigated against nuke boats in 2015 are still in play. 

Garden Island will become the throbbing technological oasis of the Pacific region, Simon!!!1!

[Simon Tan]

They can probably spin up steampersons reasonably quickly if USia allows them into their training pipeline. 

Garden Island should be building Modified Collins class NOW. But it won't because nobody in Oz actually wants these boats. Just the expenditure and the political largesse.

[Argus]

Garden Island doesn't build submarines, it maintains surface ships. You're thinking of ASC in Osborne.

Son of Collins is no more a quick fix than resurrecting any complex weapon system a decade after the line closed down.  The yard reconfigured from production to support, so the design capability has fucked off long ago. Plus the combat system would still need to be sorted, and that's a chicken and egg with the overall design package. So with the best will in the world there's years of pissing about to do before anyone cuts steel. Ironically the quickest way to get any sub in the water for the RAN would be to lean on BAE Barrow and see if they can open that possible slot in the Astute line up for us

A DE sub will still have piss poor indiscretion rates in tight waters which is a serious operational issue there's no real fix for. AIP is cool for loitering but sucks for transit, and we have a lot of transit to do. 
 

Edited November 22, 2021 by Argus

[Gman]

HIlarious that China now proposing to sign a ban on Nuclear weapons in response to AUKUS.  Even funnier if ASEAN swallow this propaganda.  

Thank goodness we scrapped the deal for vapourware French subs.  It was always an insane deal and no one can accuse the French of good project management in this instance nor accuse them of keeping up their end of the bargain.  Good thing none of this can be audited due to national security.  A total mess that hopefully someone like USN can help fix.

[Gman]

Garden Island does have a decent dry dock though, although nil infrastructure for building new vessels.  Agree that manufacture in Oz is a political thing, fairly confident the first and or second boats will be built overseas.  Best option is leasing existing boat for now also.  

[Argus]

4 hours ago, Gman said:

Garden Island does have a decent dry dock though, although nil infrastructure for building new vessels.  Agree that manufacture in Oz is a political thing, fairly confident the first and or second boats will be built overseas.  Best option is leasing existing boat for now also.  

Alas the Captain Cook drydock is getting to the end of its design life, and is one more factor in a growing list that is going to force a major re-examination of the RAN's presence in Sydney. 

Manufacture in OZ is very much not a political thing, its tied firmly into lifecycle costs, based on experience gained under the Oberon's and validated by the Collins.  The only practical difference between a facility capable of doing the deep maintenance/repair on a submarine and one capable of building, it is the design capacity, while holding the IP is simply essential for long term support. Vendors come and vendors go, if you don't own the IP they have you over a barrel

 

[Gman]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

Alas the Captain Cook drydock is getting to the end of its design life, and is one more factor in a growing list that is going to force a major re-examination of the RAN's presence in Sydney. 

Manufacture in OZ is very much not a political thing, its tied firmly into lifecycle costs, based on experience gained under the Oberon's and validated by the Collins.  The only practical difference between a facility capable of doing the deep maintenance/repair on a submarine and one capable of building, it is the design capacity, while holding the IP is simply essential for long term support. Vendors come and vendors go, if you don't own the IP they have you over a barrel

 

I was referring to the "build it here" silliness.   This is highlighted by the nonsensical hue and cry about new fleet oiler replenishment ships being built cheaply, effectively and on time and on budget overseas because we could do almost none of those things here in Australia  not to mention they are too big for our slipways to build.   The whole ASC is a political mess based on vote winning in South Australia which is why it's been done that way as i understand it.

[Nobu]

19 hours ago, Gman said:

Thank goodness we scrapped the deal for vapourware French subs.  It was always an insane deal and no one can accuse the French of good project management in this instance nor accuse them of keeping up their end of the bargain.

Nothing vaporware about the sleek and modern Japanese attack subs Australia and Australians ditched. Keeping up one's end of a bargain indeed.

[Gman]

9 hours ago, Nobu said:

Nothing vaporware about the sleek and modern Japanese attack subs Australia and Australians ditched. Keeping up one's end of a bargain indeed.

From the off the record discussions I heard, the French design was far and away the best option -  of a bad bunch.   I gather there were issues with the Japanese subs for long range patrolling and evidently not as quiet in modelling as the German and French offerings.   Sadly the tendering was done based on merit against requirements rather than on political lines.  I do agree with you that the Japanese boats could have been a better political option in that they would have been far better project managed.   Certainly no one would suggest Macron of being a reliable and competent leader, although excellent at playing up the politics for a domestic audience. 

 

Of course, Nuclear was the best option and the ADF's preference but was never an allowed option til now. 

Edited November 24, 2021 by Gman

[Simon Tan]

They can buy used Soryu's with some collision damage.