The future of NATO post Afghanistan disaster.

[Ssnake]

The thing with deadlocks is, they appear immutable and then change quickly and drastically, but it's impossible to predict when it happens. You recognize the forces behind the shift only in the rearview mirror.

[seahawk]

21 hours ago, sunday said:

Germany used the transition to the Euro as European currency to put herself as dominant economy, doing a not-so-stealth devaluation of the Deutsche Mark.

I think you are missing cause and effect. As BansheeOne pointed out, Germany joining the Euro was a condition by the French for German reunification and was meant to limit the economic power of Germany. Italy or Spain were also very eager for Germany to join, because it meant that they could borrow money at much lower interest rates than before. But it also meant the Germany could devaluate their currency and thus become more competitive as an export nation, while not feeling the devaluation for imports from within the Euro zone. So, yes it was a big advantage for Germany, but hardly one Germany organised.

[sunday]

Oh, yes, the perfidious countries of the rest of Europe wanted Germany to enter the Euro with a devaluated currency.
 

Anyway, that happened, and the expansive European monetary policy to bring Germany up during the not so good Schröder government, that brought the reheat of other economies of the Euro zone, also happened, even if you do not realize.

[RETAC21]

1 hour ago, sunday said:

Oh, yes, the perfidious countries of the rest of Europe wanted Germany to enter the Euro with a devaluated currency.
 

Anyway, that happened, and the expansive European monetary policy to bring Germany up during the not so good Schröder government, that brought the reheat of other economies of the Euro zone, also happened, even if you do not realize.

Well, the Euro is a symptom of the underlying problem, which is different tax systems. Had they converged at the same time, much pain would have been avoided.

[sunday]

34 minutes ago, RETAC21 said:

Well, the Euro is a symptom of the underlying problem, which is different tax systems. Had they converged at the same time, much pain would have been avoided.

It could have been helped that convergence of tax systems would not automatically imply a generalized raise of taxes.

But perhaps there are more differences between national economies apart from tax systems.

[RETAC21]

6 minutes ago, sunday said:

It could have been helped that convergence of tax systems would not automatically imply a generalized raise of taxes.

But perhaps there are more differences between national economies apart from tax systems.

There are but once you make a level playing field, other factors come into play to improve efficiency or else. Luxemboug didn't have ny factors other than taxes to become the place were funds are managed in Yurrop, but now they have attained economies of scale because lax taxation allowed them to attract banks, for example.

The downside is that the old way of doing things goes out of the window, generating rust belts where people are adamant against change, but even this process is unavoidable mid-term, just by market pressure.

[sunday]

Around here, a major driver of industrial decline after EC membership were bigoted labor unions, so many business owners preferred to sell the business to some foreign corporation, and look for other ways to make money that made them something else than "pig capitalists class enemies". Of course, the foreign corporation in question usually kept the market share, but producing the goods in, for instance, its home country, and closed the factories.

Then there is the particularly suicidal Spanish energy policy.

Edited September 8, 2021 by sunday

[RETAC21]

5 minutes ago, sunday said:

Then there is the particularly suicidal Spanish energy policy.

Just wait until we buy gas from Russia to take the final dive!

[Nobu]

1 hour ago, RETAC21 said:

There are but once you make a level playing field, other factors come into play to improve efficiency or else.

Agree. Understanding this is how nations and corporations make it to (and at) the first-world level.

[Angrybk]

On 9/7/2021 at 1:22 AM, KV7 said:

NATO is a way for Europeans to remain locked into and subsidising US hegemony. Many Europeans like this, for reasons I have discussed elsewhere.

One thing they like is the theatrics of some wars to defend liberal fundamentalism, but they can get that without having sizable capabilities. E.g. they can send 100 special forces to Afghanistan, maybe fund a school somewhere, and this is enough to keep the PR operation going. The US obviously would like more than that.

The additional problem for the US now is that the PR exercises are not so compelling anymore, though even earlier Afghanistan and Iraq were contentious domestically.

And so we may well in the future see sizable European expenditures and capabilities, but I suspect they are going to increasingly be there for European geopolitical ends. The major plausible driver of this is German concerns for 'stabilising' it's periphery. But a European army under effective German control would be a defeat for the US, as it would be another step towards a multi-polar world and away from US hegemony.

 

I agree with this post in the sense that (like you said) a lot of USAians don’t really understand that our reasons for dominating NATO were largely out of self interest. We could  afford the investment and it made us able to call the shots, it wasn’t like we were naive about it. 

[Rick]

Afghanistan will not make a difference concerning N.A.T.O.

[Stuart Galbraith]

Its already made a difference to how America's allies see it. In that regard there difference has already been made, its only the consequence of it that cannot be seen.

[seahawk]

23 hours ago, sunday said:

Oh, yes, the perfidious countries of the rest of Europe wanted Germany to enter the Euro with a devaluated currency.
 

Anyway, that happened, and the expansive European monetary policy to bring Germany up during the not so good Schröder government, that brought the reheat of other economies of the Euro zone, also happened, even if you do not realize.

How do you come to the conclusion that the Schröder government was not good? In fact they made the necessary adjustments to the social security systems, that Germany still benefits from today. Although the SPD still hates themselves for it.

[sunday]

54 minutes ago, seahawk said:

How do you come to the conclusion that the Schröder government was not good? In fact they made the necessary adjustments to the social security systems, that Germany still benefits from today. Although the SPD still hates themselves for it.

During the Schröder government the Spanish economy was in a better state than Germany's. That should be enough to arrive at a conclusion.

[seahawk]

That only tells you something about previous governments.

[sunday]

Well, at least you reckon Germany was not in her best state under the last SPD (official) government.

[seahawk]

Yes, because the conservatives failed to make necessary reforms.

[sunday]

The point here is the European Central Bank taking policy decisions to favor Germany, in spite of negative effects in other Euro economies.

How Germany arrived to that poor economic state is not relevant in this discussion.

[bojan]

EU was not made so that PIGS could live better.

[Angrybk]

On 9/9/2021 at 3:54 AM, Rick said:

Afghanistan will not make a difference concerning N.A.T.O.

Completely agree, NATO will survive as long as its member states decide it is worthwhile. European complaints about Afghanistan are just deflecting blame. 

[seahawk]

21 hours ago, sunday said:

The point here is the European Central Bank taking policy decisions to favor Germany, in spite of negative effects in other Euro economies.

How Germany arrived to that poor economic state is not relevant in this discussion.

Well, but that is not something Germany could control on its own - is it? If the PIGS did not leave the shackles of the Euro, it is their fault. The UK showed the benefits of becoming sovereign again.

[sunday]

5 minutes ago, seahawk said:

Well, but that is not something Germany could control on its own - is it? If the PIGS did not leave the shackles of the Euro, it is their fault. The UK showed the benefits of becoming sovereign again.

Well, one could not leave the EU in one day, and that was the first time a clearly asymmetric monetary policy was implemented.

Of course, if Germany feels so bad about NATO, you could leave also.

[RETAC21]

20 minutes ago, seahawk said:

Well, but that is not something Germany could control on its own - is it? If the PIGS did not leave the shackles of the Euro, it is their fault. The UK showed the benefits of becoming sovereign again.

The Euro is not necessarily evil, the states had sufficient tools to avoid the bubbles, first by controlling their expenditure, second by restricting credit through banking controls (and Spanish private banks didn't collapse precisely becuase the central bank was inflexible in demanding provisions), but free credit fueling a building bubble that reduces unemployment and makes everyone feel rich... which politician can not like that!

[seahawk]

37 minutes ago, sunday said:

Well, one could not leave the EU in one day, and that was the first time a clearly asymmetric monetary policy was implemented.

Of course, if Germany feels so bad about NATO, you could leave also.

Why should Germany feel bad about NATO, it provides security for very little German contribution and even a place to tell others what to do. Germany is a useless country, it would be great if others would see this and act.

[sunday]

My work in this thread is done.