Dawes Posted September 6, 2021 Share Posted September 6, 2021 That's a surprising turn of events. Wonder what prompted this? Maybe price? https://www.israelhayom.com/2021/09/05/parting-shots-after-only-a-decade-idf-retires-tavor-rifle/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunday Posted September 6, 2021 Share Posted September 6, 2021 I've read of about 10 catastrophic failures in 2019, as in detonations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Tan Posted September 6, 2021 Share Posted September 6, 2021 They are free from USia. Gimme M4 or I become Taliban! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus Becker Posted September 6, 2021 Share Posted September 6, 2021 Judean People's Front! Also replacing bull pups with standard rifles seems to be a thing. France did it, China is reportedly planning to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Tan Posted September 6, 2021 Share Posted September 6, 2021 Chinah has already started. QBZ 97 is on the way out slowly. Malaysia ditched the AUG, but really only because Steyr went nuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shep854 Posted September 6, 2021 Share Posted September 6, 2021 Imagine trying to tell a grunt in the mid-'60s that the M16 pattern would be taking over the Western militaries in the 21st century... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bojan Posted September 6, 2021 Share Posted September 6, 2021 Israel offered Tavor license to Serbia few years ago (well, more than few, in ~2008.). Some SF evaluated it and it was not liked locally for a number of reasons. Unfortunately I don't have results, but fact it was a bullpup was not most problematic one (police SF used FAMAS and AUG before). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manic Moran Posted September 6, 2021 Share Posted September 6, 2021 14 hours ago, Dawes said: That's a surprising turn of events. Wonder what prompted this? Maybe price? https://www.israelhayom.com/2021/09/05/parting-shots-after-only-a-decade-idf-retires-tavor-rifle/ Reading between the lines, that's what I'm gathering as well. Also worth noting the rifle is being shifted to reserve units as opposed to being fully withdrawn, and the X95 variant will remain in whatever level of service it currently is. https://www.israelhayom.co.il/military-life/world-news-military-life/article/4407467/ "The IDF spokesman responded: "As part of the annual work plan, staff work is being carried out to optimally utilize the weapons of the IDF combat unit, which weighs considerations of economic uniformity, adjustment to the purpose of the force, regular-reserve compliance, etc." No decision has been made to remove micro-Tabor weapons from use in the IDF, nor is such a decision expected" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rohala Posted September 6, 2021 Share Posted September 6, 2021 (edited) 5 hours ago, bojan said: Israel offered Tavor license to Serbia few years ago (well, more than few, in ~2008.). Some SF evaluated it and it was not liked locally for a number of reasons. Unfortunately I don't have results, but fact it was a bullpup was not most problematic one (police SF used FAMAS and AUG before). Something similar happened in Greece. A couple of years ago we started to hear about the new "national rifle" (a new service rifle to be 100% built in Greece, to eventually replace the G3) that supposedly would be ready for the parade of March 2021 (200 years from the start of the Greek independence revolution). The Tavor was more or less informally leaked to be the favourite candidate due to close cooperation with Israel. Apparently during testing it proved not entirely satisfactory and the gun had problems. Thus, as of now, still no "national rifle". Edited September 6, 2021 by rohala Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shep854 Posted September 6, 2021 Share Posted September 6, 2021 I have seen reviews where the US commercial version's (FA capability removed) accuracy at 2-300m was considered by some to be marginal ~4MOA, IIRC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Tan Posted September 7, 2021 Share Posted September 7, 2021 Cheap construction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shep854 Posted September 7, 2021 Share Posted September 7, 2021 Like the AK, adequate for the stated parameters, but waaay pricier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bojan Posted September 7, 2021 Share Posted September 7, 2021 (edited) 14 hours ago, shep854 said: I have seen reviews where the US commercial version's (FA capability removed) accuracy at 2-300m was considered by some to be marginal ~4MOA, IIRC. Still fulfils military accuracy standards and is better than what 99% of the rifle using soldiers can shoot in combat. Edited September 7, 2021 by bojan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manic Moran Posted September 7, 2021 Share Posted September 7, 2021 IDF website seems to put out somewhat contradictory information... They say they are buying more Tavors. https://www.idf.il/אתרים/זרוע-היבשה/2021/צהל-יוצא-לרכש-נוסף-של-האמלח-תוצרת-כחול-לבן/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markus Becker Posted September 7, 2021 Share Posted September 7, 2021 Do they still have older/less capable rifles than the Tavor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bojan Posted September 7, 2021 Share Posted September 7, 2021 Plenty of M4s and M16A2s in reserves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Tan Posted September 8, 2021 Share Posted September 8, 2021 3-4 MOA is unsat in 2021. 1.5 MOA should eb the benchmark. 1MOA for DMRs. The difference in barrel price is 20%. Buying 3-4MOA ammunition in 2021 is unsat. Really. That military shooting is as piss poor as it is has to do with cultural, rather than technical issues. You can train people to get 500m hits with optics repeatably in 3 days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavin-Phillips Posted September 11, 2021 Share Posted September 11, 2021 This just popped up on my suggested video feed on Youtube. I wasn't quite sure if I could believe it until I read about it on TankNet! Also, wasn't the "Micro Tavor" another name coined for the X95 before the name became standardised or was it a completely different rifle? There was supposedly an MTAR-21, but that appears to have been "also known as" the X95. IDF looking to replace Tavor with M4 The IDF are also looking to replace their older Humvees, perhaps with something locally-built. Which to be fair, is another reason why I'm surprised they'd ditch the Tavor instead of either fixing the issues/replacing whole-sale with the X95/designing their own new rifle based on previous experiences. Are there any other big users of bullpup rifles out there? Certainly Croatia seems to have hit lucky with its VHS-series both for home and export markets. It even had its moment of fame in one of the latest Fast & The Furious movies... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivanhoe Posted September 11, 2021 Share Posted September 11, 2021 On 9/7/2021 at 6:42 AM, shep854 said: Like the AK, adequate for the stated parameters, but waaay pricier. Aside from naked mercantilism, I've been wondering why the gun press has been promoting the Tavor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bojan Posted September 11, 2021 Share Posted September 11, 2021 "It is Israeli, it must be good" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted September 11, 2021 Share Posted September 11, 2021 It could also be that IWI has pissed into to many cornflakes along the way and someone has said "no more contracts". Politics can be as much or more of a reason than technical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shep854 Posted September 12, 2021 Share Posted September 12, 2021 On 9/11/2021 at 8:48 AM, Gavin-Phillips said: This just popped up on my suggested video feed on Youtube. I wasn't quite sure if I could believe it until I read about it on TankNet! Also, wasn't the "Micro Tavor" another name coined for the X95 before the name became standardised or was it a completely different rifle? There was supposedly an MTAR-21, but that appears to have been "also known as" the X95. IDF looking to replace Tavor with M4 The IDF are also looking to replace their older Humvees, perhaps with something locally-built. Which to be fair, is another reason why I'm surprised they'd ditch the Tavor instead of either fixing the issues/replacing whole-sale with the X95/designing their own new rifle based on previous experiences. Are there any other big users of bullpup rifles out there? Certainly Croatia seems to have hit lucky with its VHS-series both for home and export markets. It even had its moment of fame in one of the latest Fast & The Furious movies... Australia is going with a home-brewed upgrade of the AUG. That's one off the top of my head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty_Zuk Posted September 16, 2021 Share Posted September 16, 2021 (edited) This is fake news. The IDF will not only keep all existing stocks of the Tavor, but has already placed an order for new ones to equip new units currently using M4. There are 3 generations of the Tavor currently in service. It's possible these issues raised here were already solved by the 2nd and 3rd generations. Most reviews I've seen online are of the 1st generation. Indeed the IDF is using very old types of ammunition that are the bottleneck in accuracy, despite Elbit (previously IMI) developing and making different types of advanced ammunition. Why is that? I don't know, perhaps now that funding for the ground forces has somewhat increased they think the investment in ballistic computers alone will make up for the inherent inaccuracy. Either way, when it comes to infantry at least, the IDF tries to conserve a lot of its equipment and resources. For example the typical infantryman is expected to keep his magazines after using them, to avoid buying new ones, and insert 29 rounds instead of 30 to avoid damaging the spring. Edited September 16, 2021 by Mighty_Zuk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bojan Posted September 16, 2021 Share Posted September 16, 2021 (edited) Whatever ammo is used rifle accuracy will be better than what 95% of recruits can do. Those 5% that can usually don't use bog standard rifle. Quote For example the typical infantryman is expected to keep his magazines after using them, to avoid buying new ones, and insert 29 rounds instead of 30 to avoid damaging the spring. Retaining mags is absolutely sensible thing to do, but if you have to download your mags they are crap. Edited September 16, 2021 by bojan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Tan Posted September 16, 2021 Share Posted September 16, 2021 (edited) Buy a bag of bloody STANAG springs. Heck, have everyone buy their own mags. ETA:- Not managing your mags in a conscript army with reservist commitment in a 2nd world country (yah yah) is just fail. Edited September 16, 2021 by Simon Tan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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