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Israel retiring Tavor in favor of M4


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Israel offered Tavor license to Serbia few years ago (well, more than few, in ~2008.). Some SF evaluated it and it was not liked locally for a number of reasons. Unfortunately I don't have results, but fact it was a bullpup was not most problematic one (police SF used FAMAS and AUG before).

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14 hours ago, Dawes said:

That's a surprising turn of events. Wonder what prompted this? Maybe price?

https://www.israelhayom.com/2021/09/05/parting-shots-after-only-a-decade-idf-retires-tavor-rifle/

Reading between the lines, that's what I'm gathering as well.  Also worth noting the rifle is being shifted to reserve units as opposed to being fully withdrawn, and the X95 variant will remain in whatever level of service it currently is.

https://www.israelhayom.co.il/military-life/world-news-military-life/article/4407467/

"The IDF spokesman responded: "As part of the annual work plan, staff work is being carried out to optimally utilize the weapons of the IDF combat unit, which weighs considerations of economic uniformity, adjustment to the purpose of the force, regular-reserve compliance, etc." No decision has been made to remove micro-Tabor weapons from use in the IDF, nor is such a decision expected"

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5 hours ago, bojan said:

Israel offered Tavor license to Serbia few years ago (well, more than few, in ~2008.). Some SF evaluated it and it was not liked locally for a number of reasons. Unfortunately I don't have results, but fact it was a bullpup was not most problematic one (police SF used FAMAS and AUG before).

Something similar happened in Greece. A couple of years ago we started to hear about the new "national rifle" (a new service rifle to be 100% built in Greece, to eventually replace the G3) that supposedly would be ready for the parade of March 2021 (200 years from the start of the Greek independence revolution). The Tavor was more or less informally leaked to be the favourite candidate due to close cooperation with Israel. Apparently during testing it proved not entirely satisfactory and the gun had problems. Thus, as of now, still no "national rifle".

Edited by rohala
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14 hours ago, shep854 said:

I have seen reviews where the US commercial version's (FA capability removed) accuracy at 2-300m was considered by some to be marginal ~4MOA, IIRC.  

Still fulfils military accuracy standards and is better than what 99% of the rifle using soldiers can shoot in combat.

Edited by bojan
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3-4 MOA is unsat in 2021. 1.5 MOA should eb the benchmark. 1MOA for DMRs. The difference in barrel price is 20%.

Buying 3-4MOA ammunition in 2021 is unsat. Really.

That military shooting is as piss poor as it is has to do with cultural, rather than technical issues. You can train people to get 500m hits with optics repeatably in 3 days.

 

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This just popped up on my suggested video feed on Youtube.  I wasn't quite sure if I could believe it until I read about it on TankNet!  Also, wasn't the "Micro Tavor" another name coined for the X95 before the name became standardised or was it a completely different rifle?  There was supposedly an MTAR-21, but that appears to have been "also known as" the X95.

IDF looking to replace Tavor with M4

The IDF are also looking to replace their older Humvees, perhaps with something locally-built.  Which to be fair, is another reason why I'm surprised they'd ditch the Tavor instead of either fixing the issues/replacing whole-sale with the X95/designing their own new rifle based on previous experiences.

Are there any other big users of bullpup rifles out there?  Certainly Croatia seems to have hit lucky with its VHS-series both for home and export markets.  It even had its moment of fame in one of the latest Fast & The Furious movies...

 

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On 9/7/2021 at 6:42 AM, shep854 said:

Like the AK, adequate for the stated parameters, but waaay pricier.

Aside from naked mercantilism, I've been wondering why the gun press has been promoting the Tavor.

 

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It could also be that IWI has pissed into to many cornflakes along the way and someone has said "no more contracts". Politics can be as much or more of a reason than technical.

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On 9/11/2021 at 8:48 AM, Gavin-Phillips said:

This just popped up on my suggested video feed on Youtube.  I wasn't quite sure if I could believe it until I read about it on TankNet!  Also, wasn't the "Micro Tavor" another name coined for the X95 before the name became standardised or was it a completely different rifle?  There was supposedly an MTAR-21, but that appears to have been "also known as" the X95.

IDF looking to replace Tavor with M4

The IDF are also looking to replace their older Humvees, perhaps with something locally-built.  Which to be fair, is another reason why I'm surprised they'd ditch the Tavor instead of either fixing the issues/replacing whole-sale with the X95/designing their own new rifle based on previous experiences.

Are there any other big users of bullpup rifles out there?  Certainly Croatia seems to have hit lucky with its VHS-series both for home and export markets.  It even had its moment of fame in one of the latest Fast & The Furious movies...

 

Australia is going with a home-brewed upgrade of the AUG.  That's one off the top of my head.

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This is fake news. The IDF will not only keep all existing stocks of the Tavor, but has already placed an order for new ones to equip new units currently using M4.

There are 3 generations of the Tavor currently in service. It's possible these issues raised here were already solved by the 2nd and 3rd generations. Most reviews I've seen online are of the 1st generation.

Indeed the IDF is using very old types of ammunition that are the bottleneck in accuracy, despite Elbit (previously IMI) developing and making different types of advanced ammunition. Why is that? I don't know, perhaps now that funding for the ground forces has somewhat increased they think the investment in ballistic computers alone will make up for the inherent inaccuracy.

Either way, when it comes to infantry at least, the IDF tries to conserve a lot of its equipment and resources. For example the typical infantryman is expected to keep his magazines after using them, to avoid buying new ones, and insert 29 rounds instead of 30 to avoid damaging the spring.

Edited by Mighty_Zuk
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Whatever ammo is used rifle accuracy will be better than what 95% of recruits can do. Those 5% that can usually don't use bog standard rifle.

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For example the typical infantryman is expected to keep his magazines after using them, to avoid buying new ones, and insert 29 rounds instead of 30 to avoid damaging the spring.

Retaining mags is absolutely sensible thing to do, but if you have to download your mags they are crap.

Edited by bojan
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Buy a bag of bloody STANAG springs. Heck, have everyone buy their own mags.

ETA:- Not managing your mags in a conscript army with reservist commitment in a 2nd world country (yah yah) is just fail.

Edited by Simon Tan
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