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M1A2's for Poland?


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Damian

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Huge news, Polish MoD confirms Poland is purchasing M1A2SEPv3's. Tommorow in Wesoła where 1st Armored Brigade is stationed, MoD will present details at 11:00 local time.


In Spanish forums/media comments are being made with respect to:

- Higher fuel consumption of the turbine
- Limited fording capability.

Have you come across any comments in Poland about the limited fording capability? Maybe the capability can be installed as in USMC Abrams.

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Ok I have some details.

4 tank battalions will be purchased, each battalion 58 tanks.

+ Support, logistics, spares, ammo and simulators.

But most important is that this is pilot programme, so more will be bought in future.

If I understand this properly, we either will end with fleet of M1's and Leo2's, or pure fleet of M1's in future.

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2 hours ago, alejandro_ said:

Damian


In Spanish forums/media comments are being made with respect to:

- Higher fuel consumption of the turbine
- Limited fording capability.

Have you come across any comments in Poland about the limited fording capability? Maybe the capability can be installed as in USMC Abrams.

Every M1A1 and M1A2 can use deep water fording kit. This kit was developed and tested at M1E1 prototype in 1984.

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39 minutes ago, Damian said:

Ok I have some details.

4 tank battalions will be purchased, each battalion 58 tanks.

+ Support, logistics, spares, ammo and simulators.

But most important is that this is pilot programme, so more will be bought in future.

If I understand this properly, we either will end with fleet of M1's and Leo2's, or pure fleet of M1's in future.

Pilot programme, yes, though not for M1s but armed forces modernisation in general.

So just the usual blahblahblah

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For national/alliance defense, the higher fuel consumption is probably not an issue. Yeah, you will still need more, but unless you want to march on Moscow, it's probably not going to put a critical strain on logistics. 😁 The fact that the US is engaged with armor in Europe again, including a footprint in Poland itself, likely also alleviates economy-of-scale concerns for maintenance you might otherwise have when running a couple hundred tanks of a type no-one else operates on the continent.

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Ok I have some details.

4 tank battalions will be purchased, each battalion 58 tanks.

 

Tanks will be assigned to 18th Mechanised Division -1st Armoured Brigade and 19th Mechanized Brigade-. See structure below. The first has 2 tank battalion and the second 1. Where would the 4th batallion go?  

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/17/Poland_Land_Forces_-_18th_Mechanized_Division_Organisation_2020.png

https://www.defence24.com/polish-army-abrams-mbts-for-4-battalions-of-the-18th-mechanized-division-financing-outside-the-mods-budget

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Every M1A1 and M1A2 can use deep water fording kit. This kit was developed and tested at M1E1 prototype in 1984.

Yes, but capability is lower than for other models. Is it enough for Poland doctrine though?

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22 hours ago, BansheeOne said:

For national/alliance defense, the higher fuel consumption is probably not an issue. Yeah, you will still need more, but unless you want to march on Moscow, it's probably not going to put a critical strain on logistics. 😁 The fact that the US is engaged with armor in Europe again, including a footprint in Poland itself, likely also alleviates economy-of-scale concerns for maintenance you might otherwise have when running a couple hundred tanks of a type no-one else operates on the continent.

From a Polish PoV marching on Moscow should be just as critical as marching on Berlin so both contingencies need to be taken into account :D

More practical concerns would be the need to more fuel tankers to support a thirsty tank

 

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Few more info.

Service for M1A2SEPv3's will be in Poland.

Polish Army and MoD want to buy tanks equipped with Trophy HV active protection.

Purchase will be funded from separate budget, so other MoD programs wont be cut.

This purchase is not a Wilk programme, but more purchases in future will fullfill requirements of Wilk programme.

There are talks with US about possible future polonization of these tanks.

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7 hours ago, Damian said:

Polish Army and MoD want to buy tanks equipped with Trophy HV active protection.

What's the source for this?

Also, if you have info on that, does Poland have interest in installing it on existing Leopards as Germany did?

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1 hour ago, Mighty_Zuk said:

What's the source for this?

Also, if you have info on that, does Poland have interest in installing it on existing Leopards as Germany did?

Polish Army high ranking officers. I will post interview later but keep in mind, its in polish only.

No, there are no plans to equip Leopard 2's that way. From what I understood, desired direction is to completely phase out T-72, PT-91 and Leopard 2 tanks, and replace them with M1A2SEPv3 tanks, or eventually also other MBT, because Wilk program is still formally running, and vehicles like K2PL are in game.

Its a complex matter, I will try to explain later.

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No, there are no plans to equip Leopard 2's that way. From what I understood, desired direction is to completely phase out T-72, PT-91 and Leopard 2 tanks, and replace them with M1A2SEPv3 tanks, or eventually also other MBT, because Wilk program is still formally running, and vehicles like K2PL are in game.

A number of countries could be interested in these second hand vehicles.

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14 minutes ago, alejandro_ said:

 

A number of countries could be interested in these second hand vehicles.

The Great European Tank Swap (tm) would be back on tracks if those Leos were dropped on the market.

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On 7/16/2021 at 8:30 PM, alejandro_ said:

 

A number of countries could be interested in these second hand vehicles.

We do not know if these Leopard 2's will be sold. They might be used in other ways.

@Mighty_ZukIs right, they might be put in storage as just in case reserve.

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22 minutes ago, TrustMe said:

The Germans still have 78 Leopard2 A4's in store.

But probably not for sale. I think they are waiting for upgrade for Bundeswehr. But there are people on this forum that would know.

Edited by Sardaukar
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The number likely refers to the "rotational reserve" of 80 which German parliament mandated to be acquired two years ago in addition to the intended total of 328 in active service because they were worried that the upgrade of the various existing variants to common 2A7V standard would lead to shortages as the vehicles undergo modernization, specifically for deployment in VJTF 2023. They wouldn't be available for sale, and at any rate not be enough for the Polish plans. 

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I will be clear here. It is not directly said by officials. But we might expect that in total we will buy between 500 at minimum, and 750-800 M1's.

Goverment is changing ways in which procurement and funding will be done. Hopefully Narew, Wisła phase II, Miecznik, Orka and Kruk programs procurements will also move forward.

@Mighty_ZukIn my opinion, current Polish goverment starts to think about security and defense in similar way as Israeli goverments. Any threat to Poland is an existentional threat, IMHO its a good way they start to think that way.

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3 hours ago, Damian said:

@Mighty_ZukIn my opinion, current Polish goverment starts to think about security and defense in similar way as Israeli goverments. Any threat to Poland is anexistentional threat, IMHO its a good way they start to think that way.

Countries that cease to exist from time to time tend to take defense seriously.

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2 hours ago, Mikel2 said:

Countries that cease to exist from time to time tend to take defense seriously.

Especially after several centuries of being the freeway between hostile powers.

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